[Decky]

Well duh, they killed facsists. No one cares about their lives. Look at bomber command, the RAF's brave killers of women and children everyone aproves of them, no one minds people killing fascists. I mean no one thinks about all the Nazis they killed while watching the Dam Busters.

Lets have a look at what was left of Musonlini once the Italian Communists had got to his car to emphasise the point.



The only good facsist is a dead facsist.

[Goldberk]

So in decky's world not only is every working class person who tries to better themselves a class enemy but every German a fascist

[Cartertonian]

And every Italian!

Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify.

Or as Decky's worldview would appear to have it, 'Keep It Simple, Stupid!'

[Decky]

So in decky's world not only is every working class person who tries to better themselves a class enemy

To be fair I did point out to Carter that the class enemy issue with the military isn't the fact they are trying to get ahead in life it is the fact that they are killing other working people for money.

but every German a fascist

Well Hitler was democraticly elected, it isn't as if the forced himself on the German nation.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Uhh... are you about to start arguing that history is too snobbish for "true" working class?

[Heisenberg]

The trick with Decky is not to take his posts at face value. I seriously doubt he really has such a childishly simple view of the world. For instance, the narrative about the "brave boys of Bomber Command" "killing fascists" conveniently ignores the fact that Hamburg and Dresden, for example, were both strongholds of the SPD at the time (and, as far as I know, still are). Deliberately killing women and children in left-wing areas with a terror-bombing campaign is to be praised by the left, apparently.

[Decky]

Uhh... are you about to start arguing that history is too snobbish for "true" working class?

Nope, why would I?

[The Clockwork Rat]

The Nazis not forcing themselves on Germany.

[Decky]

The Germans loved them, voted for them in their millions and if you discount the Communists there was very little resistance from Germans to the Nazis once they got in.

[SpaciousBox]

So now you’re going to blame the German people for wanting to better their lives through the only avenue left to them? I may have only read a little Marx, but last I checked they are only class traitors if they are class conscious. Are you suggesting the entire German population were class conscious when they elected Hitler?

As to thread; greatest problem with the modern left is class snobbery. Middle class people looking down on working class people, working class people looking down on middle class people. It is (ironically) the social class divide that is ensuring the survival of the economic divide. This needs to be tackled if the left is ever to unite in some progressive fashion; be it centre or true left.

[Goldberk]

Decky's revelling in ignorance is a key part of the left, a bad part.

As to class snobbery it's the other direction that's the problem, the working class looking down on middle-class attitudes and behaviours, eating kebabs, smoking fags and watching corrie when they should be cooking, reading and bettering themselves.

[SpaciousBox]

Whilst I agree with you 100%, don't you think that it is that perspective - which in of itself is middle class - that is causing the snobbery? The simple fact that you and I, as middle class people, are effectively trying to tell the working class what to do, is creating their lack of interest in adopting middle class values. After all, if someone tried to direct your life from their high horse wouldn't you end up finding it at least slightly patronising? I think we're creating the problem more times than not. The focus should probably be more on breaking down the barriers that prevent personal growth, than trying to direct that growth itself (not that I'm arguing that is what you were saying).

[fuser]

So now you’re going to blame the German people for wanting to better their lives through the only avenue left to them?

It was not the only avenue. That being said comparing GPW to any imperialist war is faulty. Germans whether conscious or not were effectively trying to destroy entire so called races and the only proletarian state, defending from such onslaught using any means was justified. Even in a popular civil war proles will have to fire at another proles, the argument that no proles should ever fire at another prole ever is downright ridiculous.

when they should be cooking, reading and bettering themselves.

"Bettering themselves"? So basically instead for calling on them to agitate and strike we are supposed to tell them that its your lifestyle which is the problem, you fuckers are yourself to blame? This kind of parentalist middle class snobbery is exactly the reason why Europe spewed filth like Eurocommunism, Frankfurt school etc resulting in virtual destruction of left in Europe, a space being filled by fascist because instead of getting all preachy on their arses at least they are listening to working class.

[Decky]

"Bettering themselves"? So basically instead for calling on them to agitate and strike we are supposed to tell them that its your lifestyle which is the problem, you fuckers are yourself to blame? This kind of parentalist middle class snobbery is exactly the reason why Europe spewed filth like Eurocommunism, Frankfurt school etc resulting in virtual destruction of left in Europe, a space being filled by fascist because instead of getting all preachy on their arses at least they are listening to working class.

Indeed, the real left have a saying, "rise with your class, not above it."

Goldberk just things everyone should turn traitor and try to become middle class and abandon their former comrades to their fate.

[Heisenberg]

I think Goldberk could have worded it better, but you guys are being unfair. "Bettering themselves" doesn't refer to "rising above" the working class. I took it to mean self-education and a healthy lifestyle. There is absolutely no reason why either of these must be an exclusively "middle class" pursuit, and they certainly shouldn't be derided (especially not education).

[SpaciousBox]

They know all of that, Heisenberg. Goldberk has been a very consistent poster in terms of his Marxism and what it means in terms of prole revolution.

Germans whether conscious or not were effectively trying to destroy entire so called races and the only proletarian state, defending from such onslaught using any means was justified. Even in a popular civil war proles will have to fire at another proles, the argument that no proles should ever fire at another prole ever is downright ridiculous.

Just for clarity, I wasn't supporting the idea that proles shouldn't kill proles. I was simply pointing out that not all supporters of fascism were themselves ideological fascists. They were offered a real alternative to the slump they were in and took it.

[Potemkin]

It should be pointed out that the Bolsheviks themselves were relentless self-improvers. Stalin, in particular, read books voraciously, on any and every topic. He even managed to turn himself into something of an expert in the field of linguistics. You can deride this as 'bourgeois' if you like, but you would then have to deride Comrade Stalin himself as 'bourgeois'.

[fuser]

I (and also Decky, I think) am not deriding, reading books as Bourgeoisie.

Also, you can't compare vanguards/leaders/intellectuals of working class to every rank and file of the proles, this whole parentalist attitude towards proles is the least thing required at this day and age. There are far more pressing concerns than lifestyle of a prole. As a committed member of any vanguard party its one's duty to understand and expand on theoretical framework (like Stalin) but expecting every prole to quit drinking and visit opera houses every evening is completely different and ridiculous thing.

There is absolutely no reason why either of these must be an exclusively "middle class" pursuit, and they certainly shouldn't be derided (especially not education).

The point that I am trying to make here is such parentalist attitude almost always (as historically it has) leads to a feeling of contempt towards the proles and these middle class preachers will sooner or later jump towards liberal boat far away from the backwardness of proles.

[Goldberk]

I'm being quick with posts as I'm typing off my phone, to be more specific my position is as follows, one of the problems the working class has is a fetishisation of an oppressed alienated lifestyle, parts of the left also fetishise this condition, I suggest that some aspects of a middle class lifestyle would be positive for all to adopt, now fuser is correct to say that someone like me telling them to won't be effective, but we should find a way to make it so.

Also Stalin's Russia was no longer a proletarian state.

[JRS1]

The thing with Nigel Slater is that he embodies a cultural conflict internal to the working class, between "middle class" values (eating better food, valuing education, valuing high culture, intellectual and political engagement) and "common" values (junk food, low culture, engagement with celebrity culture)

I'm with Nigel Slater in this conflict

He embodies nothing but self congratulatory middle class smugness. His fake chestnut locks are testament to that alone.

Im not sure hid smugness and and chestnuts locks demonstrate a value beyond that. Certainly not "intellectual and political engagement".

Are you fucking kidding me Goldberk? Therein lies the problem...