[Dagoth Ur]

The only "Marxists" who call the USSR capitalist are Cliffite Trots and left-wing Maoists/Hoxhaists. Neither group is even sizable let alone representative of a real debate among Communists.

Also laborers aren't workers. Peasants are laborers.

MOD NOTE: Split From "Class and inverted snobbery"

[Decky]

Also laborers aren't workers. Peasants are laborers.

Labourers on building sites are also (odly enough) labourers and they work for a wage.

[Dagoth Ur]

No those are proletarians, crafted by capitalism and superior to lowly laborers. That is a prole builds a house, a laborer a shack.

[layman]

The Nature of Labour has changed too much for these distinctions.

It just seems to come down to 'eat the rich' so wouldnt it be simpler to just check peoples bank balance when the revolution comes?

All those with a net worth of 100k+ or something. Keep it simple. You are going to have a not of morons running things after all

[Decky]

No those are proletarians, crafted by capitalism and superior to lowly laborers. That is a prole builds a house, a laborer a shack.

They are both, labourers on a building site are called labourers. Just like how taxi drivers are called taxi drivers and milkmen are called milkmen. They are all prolatarian, in the English language the word labourer has no farming conotations whatsoever.

http://www.indeed.co.uk/Building-Labourer-jobs

Fucking colonials.

[Dagoth Ur]

This is just a dirty limey language trip? Gross. Regardless a roman laborer and a proletarian are not the same fucking thing.

[Decky]

There is already a word for peasent (hint it is peasent) why are you pretenting that labourer means peasent?

[Dagoth Ur]

Because even a laboring worker is more than a laborer. And I was just using peasant in its classical, diminutive sense, not that literally all laborers are peasants.

I don't see the point of your crypto-Maoist attempt to lump proles in with lesser laborers.

[Decky]

I don't see the point of your crypto-Maoist attempt to lump proles in with lesser laborers.

You misunderstand me I am not trying to lump proles and peasents together, that would not be ideologicaly impure. You are the one who is doing that.

You are lumping labourers (people who work on building sites and are paid a wage, proles) with peasents (not proles).

[Rei Murasame]

This has confused me as well. I thought that:

• Proletarians = workers.
• Peasants = labourers.

This seems logical to me.

The only part where it gets a bit ambiguous is where a 'labour party' is about workers, but not labourers.

But if you mean 'labourer' as in a builder (UK), then builders are of course workers, which is to say, proletarians.

[ThereBeDragons]

The reason the left will never win is because even 100 years later nobody can agree on definitions.

On the other hand, the middle class is fully united in its appreciation for Christian values. God bless America, the greatest nation on earth.

[Dagoth Ur]

The whole disagreement is over Decky calling Construction Workers laborers. As an American we call all workers what they are, workers.

@TBD: the petit-bourgeoisie may seem united but really they hate each other much more than workers hate one another.

[Rei Murasame]

The whole disagreement is over Decky calling Construction Workers laborers. As an American we call all workers what they are, workers.

Well, I think the Americans got this one right then. Calling them 'construction workers' makes everything line up properly.

the middle class is fully united

I think Dagoth Ur is right about the solidarity level, the petite-bourgeoisie (incl. labour aristocracy) is inherently more unstable than any other class, it not cannot rule as a class alone and requires either proletarian assent or haute-bourgeoisie sponsorship, also individually each family is in danger of losing everything at any time if one generational mistake is made.

I'd also add that struggles between petty-bourgeoisie factions (assisted from either above or below) are also the most vicious because they are fights over the smallest - but most important slice - of the social fabric, since it determines the entire fate of a nation whenever it happens.

[Decky]

Fucking colonial savage. Go speak Cree or something, if you are going to speak English speak it correctly instead of butchering it.

[Dagoth Ur]

For what it's worth we might as well stop calling it English. We're Germans not Anglos. It disgraces is to have our language named after such a bastard island. Good deflection from your crypto-Maoist argument earlier though.

[Rich]

Fucking colonial savage. Go speak Cree or something, if you are going to speak English speak it correctly instead of butchering it.

On this one I have to say Decky's view is balanced, impartial and correct.

[Decky]

I am not a crypo-Maoist, I do not think that peasents are prolatarian. I think that Labourers (unskilled labour on building sites who help out the skilled tradesmen and do so for a wage) are prolatarian.

You are the one who mentioned peasents in the first place not me.

[Dagoth Ur]

You're the one drawing a line between proletarians, adding vaguely defined phrasing, and falling for petty nationalism. Sounds like a Maoist to me. It's more funny than anything considering your entire argument is based on the fact that Brits feel a need to have a thousand words for class distinctions.

But keep trying to say that I'm calling construction workers peasants. It's cute.

[Decky]

I am not drawing a lines between Prolatarians, labourers are prolatarians, just like people who work in factories are prolatarians and any other person that works for a wage.

What part of this do you not get get? In the English langages labourers are the prolatarins who work on building sites but are not skilled tradesmen.

My client requires a team of 3 operatives, 2 Semi skilled and a labourer, to carry out work on a roll out throughout England and Scotland. You must be competent in using cordless and electric tools. All 3 must be able to travel together. The contracts are based on a 10 hour day, and you will be working under the supervision of the Main Contractor. The semi skilled rate is £130 per day and the labourer is £100, there is NO ALLOWANCE for DIGS, but you will have 30p per mile for all miles incurred whilst on these contracts. You must have CSCS, full PPE and cordless, electric and hand tools (only basic). If you have the skills outlined and can work and travel as part of a team please call Colin on 01908 726077.

A labourer being paid for his labour, a prolatarian.

Integra People Ltd
CSCS GROUNDWORKER
Job description
Our Client, a national civil engineering contractor, are looking for experienced CSCS carded labourers for an immediate start.

You must have previous experience of working on civil engineering sites. Duties will include all aspects of groundworks including kerbing, slabbing, drainage and pipe fitting etc.

Hours of work are 40-45 hours with the work ongoing for the right candidate.

You must be able to provide work related references and copies of relevant cards and certificates.

Immediate starts available for the right candidate.

See?

General Labourer
Nationwide Logistical Solutions Ltd - Birmingham

We are currently looking for a general labourer in Birmingham with experience to start immediately.

Applicants must have a CSCS Card and must be reliable, hardworking and have previous experience in general labouring.

You must know how to use tools such as drills correctly and safely.

Please email CV to natalie @nl-s. co.uk to apply

None of this is complicated.

[Rei Murasame]

Well, there is this:

建設作業員

Kensetsu Sagyouin. That's 'construction worker' in English.

Alternately there is this:

作り手

Tsukurite. That's 'sharecropper' in English, but it is also 'builder' as well. But this one seems to have a peasant-like connotation, since the sharecropping thing does not look like a proletarian category. Right?