[Political Interest]

How wealthy does someone need to be before they can be called a rich socialist?

[voxlashi]

Great OP. If you let rich " socialists" be in charge of the movement (or have any role in it at all since they always end up in charge somehow) all you get is the Labour party.

Yeah, socialism was totally ruined by the likes of Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and Fidel Castro.

[Decky]

They were all topped by Uncle Joe, proving that working class leaders get things done.

[QatzelOk]

Yeah, socialism was totally ruined by the likes of Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin

Soviet Communism recreated the class structure of European bankster-capitalism in a "total monopoly" atmosphere. It lead to the triumph of crony capitalism and the sell-off of state resources.

Perhaps if someone less wealthy and less prone to the chauvinism of the elites were to actually get published.... (only on a free Internet)

and Fidel Castro.

He was the illegitimate son of someone wealthy. So it's likely that he wasn't spoiled rotten at all, and that he learned to detest the rich from his foster parents: a lesson well learned and very useful to the Cuban people.

[wiseraphael]

Yup...the Cuban people detest the rich.....that's why they're so poor.
It's a matter of principle.

However, I should really stay off this subject....I'm not a Socialist.
I've always worked for a living.

[Torus34]

Er, 'scuse me. I've missed something here.

The topic line alludes to a 'problem' with rich socialists. Yet, though there is much castigation of them as a class, no 'problem' is presented for discourse.

Was the intent to suggest that there is some danger to society in socialists having wealth?

[QatzelOk]

Er, 'scuse me. I've missed something here.

Yes, the OP. Go back and read it along with page 1.

Yup...the Cuban people detest the rich.....that's why they're so poor.

Cuba is the richest nation in its region with the least income inequality. Compared to Haiti or the Dominican Republic, it is a wonderful place to be a normal human being.

Though banksters, drug-dealers and Walmart shareholders would probably agree with you, as you seem to agree with them (and their media).

[wiseraphael]

Compared to Haiti or Dominican republic??!

That's some comparison!!

Fact is their Socialism hasn't worked and they are very very poor.

But then Socialism has never worked anywhere that I can think of.

[ThereBeDragons]

The problem with poor socialists is that they don't accomplish anything without guns, and rich capitalists have more guns.

[voxlashi]

Soviet Communism recreated the class structure of European bankster-capitalism in a "total monopoly" atmosphere. It lead to the triumph of crony capitalism and the sell-off of state resources.

And this happened under Lenin?

He was the illegitimate son of someone wealthy. .

He studied law, which in itself is traditionally a pretty prestigious field. Not to mention the fact that studies altogether was not a layman's commodity in 1940's Latin America. While Castro might not have been wealthy himself, he likely suffered from upper/middle class predispositions stemming from his background.

So it's likely that he wasn't spoiled rotten at all, and that he learned to detest the rich from his foster parents: a lesson well learned and very useful to the Cuban people

That's beside the point. We're discussing whether or not socialists of means may properly represent the interests of the working class. When or how Castro came to despise expropriation and inequality is irrelevant.

I've always worked for a living.

How good of you to support a system of which unemployment is an inherent part, then.

[QatzelOk]

Compared to Haiti or Dominican republic??!

That's some comparison!!

Yes. Neighboring countries that are still under the thumb of Western capitalism.

Who are you comparing Cuba to? The Upper East Side of Manhattan? Neuilly-sur-Seine? Kuwait?

[wiseraphael]

95th in the world in terms of GDP.

looks like Socialism isn't very productive!

[Torus34]

@ wiseraphael:

There's a tendency to see and rate present societies in terms of GDP. This is particularly true here in the US of A, the current home of consumerism. 'When all you have is a hammer ... .'

This pocm believes that there are other ways to rate and rank societies or, if you wish, nations. One to which I subscribe begins with a question: what is a good life? It can be partially defined by parameters such as:

A good life is

a) one which is not cut short by violence or suicide.
b) one which is not impaired by addiction.
c) one which is not truncated by lack of access to medical care.
d) one which is not subject to excessive societally-imposed stresses.
e) one which ... .

You get the idea. I've side-stepped GDP, though admittedly a case can be made for its impact. I've also sidestepped many of the rallying cries of our political parties. Those are, to use the words of Ambrose Bierce, 'A stench in the ear.'

[wiseraphael]

Yes...I've always liked that quote!

I agree with you.....but it's not much good living a clean life, a peaceful life etc if you live your life in extreme poverty.
Poverty leads to more corruption, more inequality, more unfairness....

"Cuba has a moderate corruption rate. The 2012 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index ranked the country 58th out of 176 countries, tied with Jordan and Namibia. Cuba fared better than most of the other countries in the Caribbean and Central America.[12]
State ownership has contributed to rampant corruption. The book Corruption in Cuba says that "As in other former socialist countries, when given opportunity, few citizens hesitate to steal from the government. Since the bulk of the productive resources are owned and managed by the state and the vast majority of Cubans work for state-owned enterprises, these petty crimes are widespread".[13] Bribery is widespread, even in medical care. Musicians regularly pay bribes to perform in tourist areas, where they can earn convertible currency. A bicycle taxi license is reported to cost $150 in bribes.[14] The government has made an effort to curb corruption, and a handful of corrupt individuals have been captured in recent years.[15][16]"

[Zagadka]

95th in the world in terms of GDP.

looks like Socialism isn't very productive!

The point of socialism is very much not "high GDP", it is high quality of life and low income disparity, so I'm not sure what point you've made there.

[QatzelOk]

Wiseraph, thanks for revealing a problem with rich people in general: they can afford to purchase propaganda that tells you GDP per capita is the measure of well being. In 2008, when the bankstets snorted a year"s worth of the entire American tax base, there was no change in GDP per capita. The banksters just stole a huge chunk of it.

And then they started printing money which increases GDP per capita(temporarily). You must love these bankster heroes. The socialists among them have provided texts warning about "disaster capitalism" but there is no political movement to end disaster capitalism. Just a book you can buy with your tiny share of the massive bankster GDP.

All the Cubans did is ensure that everyone gets healthcare food ans éducation. Meanwhile, thé USA gets qualitative leasing tout help thé banks - who also control thé books you get to read via the money-based publishing industry.

[wiseraphael]

....and after over 50 years of Socialism they are still poor.
Most capitalist countries have free healthcare, benefits systems to protect the needy....and a high standard of living.
Not to mention the high rate of corruption in Socialist countries...not just Cuba....what's the saying?
"All are equal only some are more equal than others".
Dachas in Soviet Union, limousines in East Germany, special shops etc for party members. While the people went hungry.

Now...I know what you're going to say..."that's not real Socialism". Cobblers!

[Rei Murasame]

How do you feel about Vietnam then, Wiseraphael? How would you rate them?

[Zagadka]

....and after over 50 years of Socialism they are still poor.

Might have something to do with that whole naval blockade and them being an island.

You realize how this works? The US has the blockade, severely limiting trade. The Cubans are stuck with the Castros because America is blockading them and the resulting anti-American panic keeps them there. People point to the resulting clusterfuck as proof.

Most capitalist countries have free healthcare, benefits systems to protect the needy....and a high standard of living.

... so having public healthcare and crap is capitalism now?

Wow. That is like... just... literally opposite land. Call Fox News! Obamacare is totally free market!

Not to mention the high rate of corruption in Socialist countries...not just Cuba....what's the saying?

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

1 Denmark
1 New Zealand
3 Finland
3 Sweden
5 Norway
5 Singapore
7 Switzerland
8 Netherlands
9 Australia
9 Canada
11 Luxembourg
12 Germany
12 Iceland
14 United Kingdom
15 Barbados
15 Belgium
15 Hong Kong
18 Japan
19 United States of America
19 Uruguay
21 Ireland

163 Haiti
167 Yemen
168 Syria
168 Turkmenistan
168 Uzbekistan
171 Iraq
172 Libya
173 South Sudan
174 Sudan
175 Afghanistan
175 North Korea
175 Somalia

So you are telling me that Denmark, New Zealand, Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland are capitalist wonderlands and Somalia, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Libya, and Sudan are socialist wastelands?

[voxlashi]

it's not much good living a clean life, a peaceful life etc if you live your life in extreme poverty.
Poverty leads to more corruption, more inequality, more unfairness....

Poverty is meaningless without inequality. Without inequality, there would be no relative deprivation, no sense of inferiority when living under modest circumstances.

Like Marx said, people won't feel uncomfortable with their small houses unless there's a really big upper class house adjacent to it. Furthermore, if a man in a small house works harder for more income, he will simultaneously increase the capital income of his work for the bourgeoisie living in the big house. And so while he may build his own house bigger, the bourgeoisie will also reap the fruits of the man's increased productivity, allowing for an even bigger house.