Right Wing Socialism? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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By VerminLord
#14509820
As we all know, socialism is considered to be on the left while capitalism is on the right. Those somewhere in the center may advocate a mix of the two. I consider fascism to be in the center economically, since it has tendencies of both the right and the left.

Is there a right wing socialism? The reason for this question is that I have been studying ideologies such as fascism and integralism which want national syndicalism. National syndicalism (I am new to this concept, so forgive me if I am wrong) is a socialist ideology, but integralists turn it into a right wing version.

Also, there is National Socialism, and despite the name, I do not see anything socialist about it. On the political spectrum Hitler is somewhere on the right. I am aware that socialist reject national socialism, and understandably so. If I recall my history correctly, the Nazis had some form of capitalism. Would National Socialism simply be a right wing version of socialism or a combination of capitalism and socialism?
#14509916
VerminLord wrote:As we all know, socialism is considered to be on the left while capitalism is on the right. Those somewhere in the center may advocate a mix of the two. I consider fascism to be in the center economically, since it has tendencies of both the right and the left.

Is there a right wing socialism? The reason for this question is that I have been studying ideologies such as fascism and integralism which want national syndicalism. National syndicalism (I am new to this concept, so forgive me if I am wrong) is a socialist ideology, but integralists turn it into a right wing version.

Also, there is National Socialism, and despite the name, I do not see anything socialist about it. On the political spectrum Hitler is somewhere on the right. I am aware that socialist reject national socialism, and understandably so. If I recall my history correctly, the Nazis had some form of capitalism. Would National Socialism simply be a right wing version of socialism or a combination of capitalism and socialism?


Right wing in relation to what country? What is considered "right wing" varies from location to location, depending also on what right you are talking about. Is it an economic "right" or a social "right", what do you mean when you say "right wing"? Because it could vary from Christian socialism, Islamic socialism with (relative) social conservatism to something utterly different like neoliberal concepts combined with heavy state involvement (one could hardly call it socialism) - something like state-capitalism or directed capitalism found in China or the "Asian tigers".

It's hard to bring Fascism/Nazism into a debate that involves a left-right liberal spectrum, because by very definition fascism is illiberal, and is hard to characterize on a liberal spectrum. It's also pragmatic with relation to the economy, being secondary to a palingenetic ethnic rebirth as it is not ideology focused on materialism, but rather a rejection of it.

Some strands, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strasserism featured heavy anti-capitalist rhetoric but were politically made irrelevant. By virtue of what fascism is due to its reverence for the nation, it is impossible for it to compromise with internationalist liberal ideology or internationalist communism. Yellow Socialism was heavily absorbed into Fascist thought as it represented a system that was not explicitly trans-national.
#14510025
VerminLord wrote:As we all know, socialism is considered to be on the left while capitalism is on the right. Those somewhere in the center may advocate a mix of the two. I consider fascism to be in the center economically, since it has tendencies of both the right and the left.


Right-wing socialism is what we now call social democracy. The Soviet Union referred to it as "social fascism".

Is there a right wing socialism? The reason for this question is that I have been studying ideologies such as fascism and integralism which want national syndicalism. National syndicalism (I am new to this concept, so forgive me if I am wrong) is a socialist ideology, but integralists turn it into a right wing version.


Okay, no, you need to divorce all of those concepts from one another. National syndicalism was a very short lived Marxian development in Italy, which pursued a pro-War agenda (they believed it would give way to a renewed revolutionary spirit, which it did, sort of) but a lot of the theorists died in World War One and most of those who survived rejected socialism outright and went over to the fascists.

Fascism is an extreme form of anti-communism, essentially, and can be imagined as "social democracy without democracy". It tends to favour government intervention in the economy and social welfare programmes but cannot be classified as socialist because it rejects the notion of public ownership of the means of production and class struggle.

National syndicalists often get mixed up with fascists, most notably in Spain, and it never ends well for them. Left-leaning fascists, in general, often end up with bullets through their brains.

A few of Georges Sorel's students wanted to inject a revolutionary syndicalist element into fascism (more specifically, integral nationalism) but realised pretty early on that it was a waste of time.

Also, there is National Socialism, and despite the name, I do not see anything socialist about it. On the political spectrum Hitler is somewhere on the right. I am aware that socialist reject national socialism, and understandably so. If I recall my history correctly, the Nazis had some form of capitalism. Would National Socialism simply be a right wing version of socialism or a combination of capitalism and socialism?


National Socialism is a misnomer. Back then, you could be forgiven for thinking that it might have some kind of attachment to actual socialism (remember, a lot of fascists like to play pick'n'mix with political concepts), but after the Night of the Long Knives (when the left-wing elements of the Nazi Party were murdered), it would be a little naive to do so.

"Adolf is a swine. He will give us all away." - Ernst Rohm.
#14511502
Well if you're looking for a truly right wing Socialism then you certainly have the Nazi Germany, this year while attending Economic and business history class I noticed that URSS and Nazi Germany had even more in Common than I already knew. Despite the autocracy and cult of personality, in terms of economic polcies both countries planned how things were going to happen, the difference was that in Nazy Germany private property was still on while on URSS everything was about to get expropriated from their owners, they even had what we would call some Social-Democracy policies as the welfare state, altough they applied Social Darwinism and so they started teaching kids that a def person was "more expensive" than a "regular person", so in fact there was such a thing as Right Wing Socialism. But you're looking for more examples, let's say democratic Right Wing Socialism movement, I can't find anyone but that doesn't mean they didn't exist...
By Decky
#14511519
No such thing as right wing socialism. By definition socialists are pro-working class and thus left wing. How can you be a right wing (pro-capitalist) socialist? It is a nonsense term.
#14511528
Decky wrote:No such thing as right wing socialism. By definition socialists are pro-working class and thus left wing. How can you be a right wing (pro-capitalist) socialist? It is a nonsense term.


Well everything has its own continuum.

Each party has its own right and left wing. So, if someone's on the right of a socialist party they should still be further left than someone in a liberal party.

Thinks get a little less clear, however, when fascists and sometimes even conservatives (as in Spain) appropriate left-wing labels. And, then, of course, there are always socialist tendencies and cells within fascist organisations. It can be a little confusing.

For example, I'm a member of the Socialist Labour Party which is well to the left of the mainstream parties but is considered to be to the right of the CPGB-ML.
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By Saeko
#14511542
Decky wrote:No such thing as right wing socialism. By definition socialists are pro-working class and thus left wing. How can you be a right wing (pro-capitalist) socialist? :?: It is a nonsense term.


Just because one is "right-wing", it doesn't necessarily follow that they are "pro-capitalist".
By Decky
#14511543
Yes it does, the fascists claim otherwise to fool working class people into supporting them but they are liars.
#14511560
Decky wrote:No such thing as right wing socialism. By definition socialists are pro-working class and thus left wing. How can you be a right wing (pro-capitalist) socialist? :?: It is a nonsense term.


Just because one is "right-wing", it doesn't necessarily follow that they are "pro-capitalist".[/quote]
In that logic is possible to be right-wing pro-working classe and against inequality?
By Decky
#14511564
How can you be right wing a pro working class? By definition the right work against the working class.
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By Saeko
#14511565
Decky wrote:Yes it does, the fascists claim otherwise to fool working class people into supporting them but they are liars.


Damn! You mean you've already figured out our devious little scheme!?

Now we'll never rise to power by keeping all of our promises to the people like the Marxists did in China and Russia where they've established a true Worker's totally-not-capitalism.
#14511566
Decky wrote:How can you be right wing a pro working class? By definition the right work against the working class.
They may not be better off under the radical right than they would be under communism, but it's conceivable that they might end up better off than they are under liberal-capitalism (so the whole thing might constitute an improvement over the present).
By Decky
#14511571
but it's conceivable that they might end up better off than they are under liberal-capitalism



Common Dragons that's weak, it's not exactly a massive boast is it?

Now we'll never rise to power by keeping all of our promises to the people like the Marxists did in China and Russia where they've established a true Worker's totally-not-capitalism.


You know you would have loved living in the 50s Soviet Union.
#14511575
Decky wrote:How can you be right wing a pro working class? By definition the right work against the working class.

It depends, right and left wing have too many stereotypes we have to separate business and state policies some people might be right-wing on state policies and public spending, and be "moderate" or even left-wing in terms of working class point of view and preaching about fair salaries and good work conditions for the working class...
Not all the right wingers are Crony capitalists that just want to get the maximum profit possible by exploiting their employee's
#14511577
ThereBeDragons wrote:They may not be better off under the radical right than they would be under communism, but it's conceivable that they might end up better off than they are under liberal-capitalism (so the whole thing might constitute an improvement over the present).


Not as working class, but nationals and citizens. They'd be given some monopolies on work, some welfare, and bribed with other gimmicks but it's all afforded by their own exploitation as is their oppression.

In that respect I don't think it's really possible for the far right to have a different relationship to the working class than the liberal-capitalists do. Even considering the immense social spending that being illiberal allows, what else can a merger of state and corporate power be but more naked and awful?

Thus the 'democratic bourgeoisie' line was born
By bug
#14603383
National cultures content is most only upper class culture from each region, while socialism is for working class, i would say socialism seeks to destroy all social classes, including nationalities.
#14603390
Decky wrote:No such thing as right wing socialism. By definition socialists are pro-working class and thus left wing. How can you be a right wing (pro-capitalist) socialist? :?: It is a nonsense term.


Looking back on this revived post, I realized what a Socialist I really am. I think one could probably for a time convince certain people of the working class of a Fascist or 'Right-Wing' tendency, keep them longer under a false consciousness, but it doesn't work forever, at least I hope not.

Late-Stage Capitalism takes more and more elements of Socialism unto itself to maintain power, at least the superficial forms or symbols of Socialism along with other oddball ideologies like Social Democracy, without any actual substance.... A bit like moving the deck chairs about on the Titanic I guess.

Stalin was right; his replacements would be like 'Blind Kittens'.
#14612154
VerminLord wrote:As we all know, socialism is considered to be on the left while capitalism is on the right.

Because in political theory, "left" means egalitarian, and "right" means elitist.

Right wing socialism is certainly possible, in fact some would argue it is inevitable as the political elite in a socialist regime use their power to administer "publicly" owned land and capital to their own advantage. Post-Maoist China, where the rich and Party cronies are almost identical sets, is an obvious example.

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