The Problem With Unions - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
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By Dubayoo
#14800097
Socialists love to appeal to unions as the right way to govern the economy, but I seriously doubt many if any of them have actually worked in unions. I say this because unions engage in the same folk community common sense that traditional conservatives do when it comes to assigning shifts to workers as well as electing people within their ranks. They deliberately oversimplify how people organize so those who are approved of the most get the best opportunities to work. They get the most convenient times, they get the most hours, they get the least risky jobsites, and get the best wages. If you expect unions to confront this, they say you're overcomplicating the distribution of work, and need to be more considerate towards other workers' understanding, appreciation, and commitment towards figuring out who gets the chance to work.

In other words, union politics put procedural equality before substantial equality. They say some members of their ranks have to endure worse working conditions because other members are either too lazy or too incompetent to grasp what it would take for everyone to work in fair working conditions. The sense of fraternity that unions advocate is anything but what it seems to be.

In turn, we fall right back into the trap of traditionally conservative favoritism. The "ruling class" that socialists seek to overturn doesn't really disappear. It just changes face. The working class doesn't remain united. Instead, it follows a popularity contest. The most productive, constructive, and creative members of society still don't get what they deserve.
By Decky
#14800330
Socialists love to appeal to unions as the right way to govern the economy, but I seriously doubt many if any of them have actually worked in unions. I say this because unions engage in the same folk community common sense that traditional conservatives do when it comes to assigning shifts to workers


Do you know what a trade union is? :?:
#14801289
I was a member of a trade union (IBEW) for forty+ years (now retired). The focus was always on wages and conditions, and restraining the worst abuses. I can't remember my union ever concerning itself with such management issues as who was assigned to what shifts or who was named to be a foreman.
By Decky
#14802540
The real problem with unions is of course that they are not heavily armed enough. If every union had a nice big stockpile of everything it needed to arm and equip its members to a decent standard everyone's wages would be far higher. Well not management scum of course, but everyone who works for a living.
#14802675
The only reason people have worker rights is because of those unions. If anything, people should try to strengthen and expand unions, again. The only people who don't like unions, are the 1%ers who make money off of the backs of the middle/lower class.
By Senter
#14802864
Dubayoo wrote:Socialists love to appeal to unions as the right way to govern the economy, but I seriously doubt many if any of them have actually worked in unions. I say this because unions engage in the same folk community common sense that traditional conservatives do when it comes to assigning shifts to workers as well as electing people within their ranks. They deliberately oversimplify how people organize so those who are approved of the most get the best opportunities to work. They get the most convenient times, they get the most hours, they get the least risky jobsites, and get the best wages. If you expect unions to confront this, they say you're overcomplicating the distribution of work, and need to be more considerate towards other workers' understanding, appreciation, and commitment towards figuring out who gets the chance to work.

In other words, union politics put procedural equality before substantial equality. They say some members of their ranks have to endure worse working conditions because other members are either too lazy or too incompetent to grasp what it would take for everyone to work in fair working conditions. The sense of fraternity that unions advocate is anything but what it seems to be.

In turn, we fall right back into the trap of traditionally conservative favoritism. The "ruling class" that socialists seek to overturn doesn't really disappear. It just changes face. The working class doesn't remain united. Instead, it follows a popularity contest. The most productive, constructive, and creative members of society still don't get what they deserve.

What are you doing to fix all this?
By Decky
#14806979
Where I work the managers manage the factory and organise the rotas, it was the same when I worked in construction. The unions have nothing to do with it. I am calling bullshit, you don't work for a union I doubt you are even a member of one. That is fine it isn't your fault, you are probably an American and thus only hear about unions on fox news.
#14806982
Saeko wrote:It's a union called "upper management".


Yeah, I never belonged to that union.

I don't think I am cut out for management. I have trouble telling women what to do when we have clothes on. :)
#14812975
Dubayoo wrote:Socialists love to appeal to unions as the right way to govern the economy . . . .

The "ruling class" that socialists seek to overturn doesn't really disappear. It just changes face. The working class doesn't remain united. Instead, it follows a popularity contest. The most productive, constructive, and creative members of society still don't get what they deserve.


I think you misunderstand what socialists actually believe. Socialists do not believe that unions are the "right way to govern the economy"; we believe that the government--owning the means of production--is the "right way to govern the economy." By contrast, unions are worthwhile because they allow individual workers greater negotiation power through collective bargaining, even if some are comparatively disadvantaged within the union structure.

The basis for this is related to the second concept you seem to misunderstand, namely the socialist critique of capitalism. The essence of the critique isn't merely that equality is bad or that rich people are bad. The point is that those who control the means of production are able to profit off of those who capitalism forces to sell their labor. The fact that some members of a union may make more as compared to other union members is therefore not a replication of capitalist oppression, as there is no difference in ownership of the means of production between the workers--and because the difference in income is orders of magnitude less than that between workers and the bourgeoisie.
#14813120
Pants-of-dog wrote:I don't think I am cut out for management.

Same. It just seems rude to me, telling people what to do.
I have trouble telling women what to do when we have clothes on. :)

Well, I've found a good start is telling them to take them off.
#14813131
Unions are just a kind of cartel or guild, that in itself is not necessarily a huge problem for anyone not in the cartel. Certain unions became infected with trashy ideologies programmed for the attacking of civilisation, for example marxism, anarchism etc. and it is this that has given unions a malfeasant reputation beyond that which ordinary self-interested cartels naturally attract upon themselves.
#14816083
Business is terrorism, meaning that unions are a reaction to terrorism


Care to elaborate on how business is terrorism?
#14816084
minivanburen wrote:Care to elaborate on how business is terrorism?


That user just spams nonsense everywhere, he doesn't mean it, it's just word salad. Just ignore him.
#14816095
SolarCross wrote:That user just spams nonsense everywhere, he doesn't mean it, it's just word salad. Just ignore him.


Ugh. Disappointing. I was hoping for some spicy discourse.

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