Socialism is the ideal way to go. Change my Mind - Page 13 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15004751
SolarCross wrote:A bill of sale demonstrates transfer of title primarily. It doesn't necessarily have to show what was exchanged for it, though that is usually desirable in case a reversal of the exchange was required. What is the substance of your counter claim? I have possession, a bill of sale, my word as an honest man and also a witness to the exchange. What do you have?


I have nothing. I am certain my claim will fail.

Where do bills of sale come from?

To whom do we present our claims?
#15004752
Pants-of-dog wrote:I have nothing. I am certain my claim will fail.

Where do bills of sale come from?

To whom do we present our claims?

Bills of sale are crafted by one or more parties to the trade and to be valid authorised by both. Do you really not know this?

In the first instance we present our claims to each other, no one else gives a shit.
#15004765
SolarCross wrote:Bills of sale are crafted by one or more parties to the trade and to be valid authorised by both. Do you really not know this?


I meant, where does this ritual originate?

In the first instance we present our claims to each other, no one else gives a shit.


Okay, so you present your claim and I present mine, but I am still convinced it is my car. What happens next?
#15004771
It sucks plain and simple.
It often results in a reduced standard of living. Low gdp and a goverment tha often eventually starts taking the rights of the people away from them.
Aka free speech gun rights reduced wages dependence on goverment .

Look at russia and china and cuba Venezuela the nazis etc and you see what socialism will do. Yes it sounds great as communist regimes do but in reality they suck if your a human with ambition
#15004776
The trigger wrote:It sucks plain and simple.
It often results in a reduced standard of living. Low gdp and a goverment tha often eventually starts taking the rights of the people away from them.
Aka free speech gun rights reduced wages dependence on goverment .


Not always, no.

And capitalism also can lead to all of this.

It would be more correct to say that both have mixed results.

And the logical question after that is to ask why it works sometimes and fails other times.

And the answer to that is a complex answer involving history, and power, and warfare.

Look at russia and china and cuba Venezuela the nazis etc and you see what socialism will do. Yes it sounds great as communist regimes do but in reality they suck if your a human with ambition


How many thousands of people die in the USA each year because they do not have health insurance?
#15004820
Pants-of-dog wrote:Okay, so you present your claim and I present mine, but I am still convinced it is my car. What happens next?


:lol:

Don't worry PoD, SC has already displayed his ignorance. No need to embarrass him further by displaying a need for a artibutor who must decide things using a system of objective values. That will go over his head. Although I'm sure his answer will be tickling each other with rapiers whilst in the cosplay of wigs and 18th century dress in order to let the Gods decide who owns what.
#15004828
Pants-of-dog wrote:I meant, where does this ritual originate?

Pre-literate people would rely on honour and witness. Bills of sale are honour and witness written down. So the written part originates in literacy while the content of honour and witness originates deep in pre-history.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Okay, so you present your claim and I present mine, but I am still convinced it is my car. What happens next?

You just said you had nothing and you were certain that your claim would fail. It seems like you are lying now. I expect an angry mob will back me up and you will be run out of town.
#15004835
SolarCross wrote:You just said you had nothing and you were certain that your claim would fail. It seems like you are lying now. I expect an angry mob will back me up and you will be run out of town.


Why would the mob back you up? What system gives you the right to claim the car as yours. What upholds that system?
#15004838
B0ycey wrote::lol:

Don't worry PoD, SC has already displayed his ignorance. No need to embarrass him further by displaying a need for a artibutor who must decide things using a system of objective values. That will go over his head. Although I'm sure his answer will be tickling each other with rapiers whilst in the cosplay of wigs and 18th century dress in order to let the Gods decide who owns what.

POD is prone to slowness and dishonesty but unlike you he pretends to care about the injuns and their property claims so eventually he will realise I am right just so that the property claims of his injun buddies won't be complete lies.
#15004842
B0ycey wrote:Why would the mob back you up? What system gives you the right to claim the car as yours. What upholds that system?

Because my property claims in the car are right and POD's are wrong. The wisdom of the crowd tends to fall to the right not the wrong. It could go the other way of course because gangs are a thing but generally civilised people make civilised choices.

Are you still worshiping Hitler and Stalin as literal, do no wrong, gods on earth?
#15004852
SolarCross wrote:Because my property claims in the car are right and POD's are wrong. The wisdom of the crowd tends to fall to the right not the wrong. It could go the other way of course because gangs are a thing but generally civilised people make civilised choices.

Are you still worshiping Hitler and Stalin as literal, do no wrong, gods on earth?


Sorry, we are discussing the state of nature. Why do you have a claim to anything? What gives you that claim? And why should the fox give a shit if the squirrel takes a nut from the oak tree?
#15004853
B0ycey wrote:Sorry, we are discussing the state of nature. Why do you have a claim to anything? What gives you that claim? And why should the fox give a shit if the squirrel takes a nut from the oak tree?


Right so you are still worshiping Comrade Hitler as a literal god on earth.

We are discussing a specific part of the state of nature called human civilisation. In human civilisation people make property claims because they need to resolve who has authority over the matter and material of their life. It is a fine art resolving the rightness of a property claim but there is a general criteria which is universal:

A property claim is rightful where it is obtained through the consent of a rightful owner.
A property claim is rightful where it comes from original appropriation.
A property claim is rightful where it is the first made on an abandoned property.

This applies to ingroups not to outgroups because nobody cares about outgroups by definition. So the squirrel is in the outgroup of the fox so of course the fox does not care about the property claims of the squirrel. Other squirrels probably would.
#15004854
I see you have resorted to hyperbole. Does Hilter have any relevance in what has been said?

Nonetheless you are ignorant. So why bother. Only a social contract gives you rights and claims FYI. A state of nature is just that. Your claim to possession is the same as that of squirrel without abided rules btw.
#15004869
B0ycey wrote:I see you have resorted to hyperbole. Does Hilter have any relevance in what has been said?

In your belief system government is the source and standard of rightfullness. A lot of people are involved in government, every Waffen SS officer or Gestapo agent is a little piece of government, but Hitler sits atop the whole pile and thus is the very epitome of rightfullness in your belief system. You don't deny it.

B0ycey wrote:Nonetheless you are ignorant. So why bother. Only a social contract gives you rights and claims FYI. A state of nature is just that. Your claim to possession is the same as that of squirrel without abided rules btw.

I am not ignorant but you are a filthy lying misanthropist.
#15004873
SolarCross wrote:In your belief system government is the source and standard of rightfullness. A lot of people are involved in government, every Waffen SS officer or Gestapo agent is a little piece of government, but Hitler sits atop the whole pile and thus is the very epitome of rightfullness in your belief system. You don't deny it.


My belief system is not a belief at all. It is just a fact. Laws determine private property. But even if you bend the definition, a third party is still required to claim what is your right because what is property without such a thing? You merely have possession.

I am not ignorant but you are a filthy lying misanthropist.


You are ignorant because you don't even know what you are talking about. You jump into these debates to suck VSs cock and you come away getting a spanking from PoD instead. :lol:

Also, I might just like to add that Hitlers thinking was more inclined to a Ancap system rather than Socialism BTW. That is brute force to obtain possession and power to obtain claim to it (victoribus spolia - "To the victor goes the spoils"). The same system that is found in a state of nature. Hilter was not a socialist but a fascist FYI. So yes it was either a hyperbole or a strawman to deflect your ignorance. Either way you are just plain wrong again. :lol:
Last edited by B0ycey on 15 May 2019 10:55, edited 4 times in total.
#15004910
SolarCross wrote:Pre-literate people would rely on honour and witness. Bills of sale are honour and witness written down. So the written part originates in literacy while the content of honour and witness originates deep in pre-history.


Many cultures devised writing. Did they all invent bills of sale? If not, what particular historic conditions led to their invention and use?

What does the bill of sale represent?

You just said you had nothing and you were certain that your claim would fail. It seems like you are lying now. I expect an angry mob will back me up and you will be run out of town.


Again, to whom do we present our claims?

These are all very simple questions about ownership.
#15004914
SolarCross wrote:Sure but I am looking for some evidence of the strange claims in this contradictory statement:

Where is the contradiction? Certainly a few people -- kings, mostly -- have claimed ownership of land in the same way they claimed ownership of other people: by forcibly removing others' rights to liberty. But that is just brute, animal possession, not private property. And speaking of contradictions, unless you are claiming rightful private property in human beings is obtained by forcibly depriving others of liberty rights they would otherwise have, how can you claim rightful private property in land is?
#15004917
Pants-of-dog wrote:Many cultures devised writing. Did they all invent bills of sale? If not, what particular historic conditions led to their invention and use?

What does the bill of sale represent?

Possibly not. Germanic pagans invented the runic script somewhere around the 1st century AD probably inspired by the highly literate Romans with whom they came in contact. All that survives today of their writing is on memorial runestones and magical charms so modern archeologists tend to assume they only used the runes for magical and religious purposes. But we know they bought and sold land and other property both in coin and by barter. Perhaps purely oral bills of sale, "word of honour", purely spoken and remembered was the norm for them until they converted to Christianity. I don't see what difference that makes? Written testimony is nice because it substitutes for trust to some extent but honourable people can do without it and certainly did before literacy.

We already covered what a bill of sale represents, cheifly it is a testimony and witness to a transfer of title. Isn't that obvious? Are you playing dumb or are you actually dumb? Serious question.

Image

Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, to whom do we present our claims?

These are all very simple questions about ownership.

And the answers are simple yet you don't seem able to understand them. Firstly anyone will present their claims to the relevant interested parties, after that it depends on the situation and the culture.
#15004921
SolarCross wrote:We already covered what a bill of sale represents, cheifly it is a testimony and witness to a transfer of title.


A transfer of title. So, when you say you own it, you are saying you are legally entitled to it?

Firstly anyone will present their claims to the relevant interested parties, after that it depends on the situation and the culture.


In this situation, and in Anglophone culture, to whom do we present our ownership claims?

We are not going to ask your neighbours, for example. Nor would we ask a panel of hard core leftists.

Whose decision would actually be binding and enforced?
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