Was Gene Roddenberry a Marxist/Socialist? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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As either the transitional stage to communism or legitimate socio-economic ends in its own right.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15035475
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, atheism is not central to Marxism. Nor is it inherent to Marxism, or necessary.


Indeed.

If I recall correctly, I believe Marx originally started off thinking the religion is the root of all the worlds evils. However, as he grew/studied more. He came to realize that religion isn't really a problem, it's capitalism. Someline @Potemkin might be able to correct or expand that understanding though.

I'm guessing people falsely believe that Maxism is anti-religion because of those early beliefs by Marx.
#15035476
@Rancid

Yeah, it seems more like a US liberal’s idea of a technocratic post-scarcity society than a vision of socialism.

While it does have some similarities, i.e. a predominantly scientific outlook and classlessness, Roddenberry did not seem to be trying to portray socialism or communism.

As for the relationship between religion and Marxism, I find that the critics of Marxism focus solely on the Soviet Union and a few selected Marx quotes. While that does provide one example of the multifaceted relationship between these two, it is reductionist to see this as typical of the relationship throughout history.
#15035490
Rancid wrote:I'm guessing people falsely believe that Maxism is anti-religion because of those early beliefs by Marx.


"The opium of the people"

He was definitely anti religious as he believed it controlled the proletariat for the benefit of maintaining the status quo. At best he believed people needed spirituality later in life but that was to give them purpose as he considered men needed such a thing than following some bullshit book and it's rules for maintaining the establishment.

Although it was Stalin who tried to eliminate religion from Russia after purging it as religion does control people. But ultimately had to accept it and work with it even it he sent it underground. It is perhaps one of the best example we have to how religion can control societies and thought and how the establishment is better working with it than being against it.
#15035508
The bourgeoisie had already successfully critiqued religion in his day. His point seems to be that critique is insufficient, the cause of peoples suffering must be solved for religion to lose its basis.
The idea of the time was criticizing religion was enough for its dissolution, but Marx shows also on the jewish question how capitalism largely retains religion as a private affair. Having established themselves as a ruling class, religion persists of which laws opposing it are also insufficient to displace it. The solution found in the soil of modern life itself rather than in its superstructure.
https://www.ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden/pdfs/Why%20Marx%20was%20not%20an%20Atheist.pdf
#15035594
Pants-of-dog wrote:Sure. Capitalists have killed millions all over the world and are still doing it.

Are you willing to admit that?


I will admit I have never seen a commie that justified the murders and repression by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. And you also deny the persecution of Christians in the USSR. You are a hard core commie, I give you that. The standard reply by people like you is"That was not real communism". And you did not use it. I give you credit for that.
#15035598
"I believe Marx originally started off thinking the religion is the root of all the worlds evils. However, as he grew/studied more. He came to realize that religion isn't really a problem, it's capitalism."

Marx was an economist. He thought capitalism would destroy itself, which is definitely a possibility.

He was wrong about when, clearly.

However, he was entirely correct in predicting the rise of opposition to the vile oppression in the 1800s.

Like Adam Smith, another early economist, he has been an enormously influential economist.

Let me make a comparison. When Relativity replaced Newtonian mechanics, we didn't revile Newton. We accepted both the new standard, and Newton's place in the history of science.

One last thing, the idea Marx had was bottom up, not top down. He wanted workers to own means of production. He would have hated Communist bureaucracy.
#15035604
Julian658 wrote:I will admit I have never seen a commie that justified the murders and repression by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. And you also deny the persecution of Christians in the USSR. You are a hard core commie, I give you that. The standard reply by people like you is"That was not real communism". And you did not use it. I give you credit for that.


I noticed that you are unwilling to admit that capitalism has killed millions and is still doing so.

You also refuse to admit that religion and Marxism have had different relationships at different times and in different contexts.
#15035625
Pants-of-dog wrote:I noticed that you are unwilling to admit that capitalism has killed millions and is still doing so.

You also refuse to admit that religion and Marxism have had different relationships at different times and in different contexts.

BS, I told you about the atomic bombs in Japan. And the invasion of Iraq, etc , etc.

Why do you defend the atrocities and murders of communism. Saying someone else did it too is no defense.

Will you condemn what Lenin, Stalin Mao, and pol Pot did?
#15035628
Julian658 wrote:BS, I told you about the atomic bombs in Japan. And the invasion of Iraq, etc , etc.

Why do you defend the atrocities and murders of communism. Saying someone else did it too is no defense.

Will you condemn what Lenin, Stalin Mao, and pol Pot did?


I already condemned them. And pointing out that others did it is not a defence, so I never defended them.

But just to be clear, do you condemn the ongoing deaths by capitalism? The ones that are currently happening?

Now, do you agree that the relationship between Marxism and religion is more complicated than simply saying Marxists hate religion?
#15035630
Pants-of-dog wrote:I already condemned them. And pointing out that others did it is not a defence, so I never defended them.

But just to be clear, do you condemn the ongoing deaths by capitalism? The ones that are currently happening?

Now, do you agree that the relationship between Marxism and religion is more complicated than simply saying Marxists hate religion?

Please provide citation for the current genocides that are done by capitalists.
#15035675
Pants-of-dog wrote:I never said it was genocide.

Answer the questions, please.


As for atheism and communism. Atheism is just a component of communism. Otherwise, the main goals of communism is simply stated nothing but EVIL. Atheism in itself is not evil. In fact this may very well be the most benign aspect. Nevertheless the commies persecuted Christians. :knife: :knife:
#15035694
Julian658 wrote:OK please provide citation about capitalists currently murdering people. You are asking me to condemn the murders. I need to know about them first.


What sort of avoidable death due to capitalism would be all right?

Is someone dying because they cannot afford medical care all right?

Is it okay for people to die of a malnutrition disease because they cannot afford to eat properly?

What about wars for resources? If we invade a country for its oil and thousands of civilians die, is that fine as long as we can now market the oil?

Julian658 wrote:As for atheism and communism. Atheism is just a component of communism. Otherwise, the main goals of communism is simply stated nothing but EVIL. Atheism in itself is not evil. In fact this may very well be the most benign aspect. Nevertheless the commies persecuted Christians. :knife: :knife:


No, atheism is not a component of communism.

Not all communists persecuted Christians. Some were and are Christians.

“Evil”. Lol.
#15035718
Pants-of-dog wrote:What sort of avoidable death due to capitalism would be all right?

Is someone dying because they cannot afford medical care all right?

Is it okay for people to die of a malnutrition disease because they cannot afford to eat properly?

What about wars for resources? If we invade a country for its oil and thousands of civilians die, is that fine as long as we can now market the oil?



Please quote how many are currently murdered by capitalists. Stop talking in general terms.

No, atheism is not a component of communism.

Not all communists persecuted Christians. Some were and are Christians.

“Evil”. Lol.


Ok, not always. I give you that. Now please provide citations for the murders.
#15035723
Julian658 wrote:Please quote how many are currently murdered by capitalists. Stop talking in general terms.


Please answer the questions.

Ok, not always. I give you that. Now please provide citations for the murders.


I also never claimed they were murders.
#15035738
Pants-of-dog wrote:
I also never claimed they were murders.

OK, fine, whatever. :knife: :knife:

Why do you justify the 100 million murdered by the commies in the 20th century? Don't answer by saying capitalists did the same. You were unable to provide a single citation for that. Be honest, I am sure you can do it. Give it a try. How do you feel about the death of 100 million people?
#15035739
Pants-of-dog wrote:Is someone dying because they cannot afford medical care all right?

What Medical care that didn't exist before what you call capitalism invented it?
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