[ArthurTandy1]

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/vlad ... nin_136421

Vladimir Lenin said that before he died in 1923

[Unthinking Majority]

The goal of medicare/medicaid is Maoism?

Or maybe the goal is just people not dying and suffering needlessly and it's not all some Marxist conspiracy.

[Monti]

Following the MARXIST doctrine, the goal of socialism is communism. To say that communism is the goal of socialism is to believe in marxist doctrine.
What is the goal of socialism? It is to lower inequality of wealth and income. How? There are many socialist ways to achieve this end. It is stupid to think that there is only ONE socialism. There are many socialisms as there are many capitalisms.

[late]

"Curiously, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias, as it fell, was, "Oh no, not again!" Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly *why* the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now."

Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy

[Rancid]

If power hungry assholes take over, then yes, Socialism becomes authoritarian communist bullshit. However, a peppering of socialistic policies is pretty alright.

Mixed economies are where it's at.

[ckaihatsu]

believe

doctrine

These aren't really the most *appropriate* terms to use, because they're usually in the domain of *religion*.

Socialism isn't a religion, contrary to what the right-wing may say.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism ... Scientific

How?

I took up this concern early on, and developed my own approach to the question:


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show

https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338


And:


Emergent Central Planning

Spoiler: show

---

If power hungry assholes take over, then yes, Socialism becomes authoritarian communist bullshit. However, a peppering of socialistic policies is pretty alright.

Mixed economies are where it's at.

'Mixed' means that the status-quo power *remains*, which is problematic, especially for anti-capitalists like myself.

It's a *class* system, so there has to be a *class*-based approach -- 'dictatorship of the proletariat'.

[BlutoSays]

The goal of socialism is:

[Mike12]

I think the French Socialism of 1840-1870 in which Karl Marx was testifying, could have evolved in a number of directions for Russian Communism for instance. And since these two States still enshrine both respectively in various ways and degrees and separately, the distinction could be made, noted on wikipedia. Socialism therefore does not always lead to Communism for instance. In fact the French are anti-communist. The French are so invested in their government, like its theirs. Like their public accountant, like, they can monitor their pension, schooling, marriage, expenses, inside the state, because they itemize it for you.

[ckaihatsu]

I think the French Socialism of 1840-1870 in which Karl Marx was testifying, could have evolved in a number of directions for Russian Communism for instance. And since these two States still enshrine both respectively in various ways and degrees and separately, the distinction could be made, noted on wikipedia. Socialism therefore does not always lead to Communism for instance. In fact the French are anti-communist. The French are so invested in their government, like its theirs. Like their public accountant, like, they can monitor their pension, schooling, marriage, expenses, inside the state, because they itemize it for you.

---

Proceeding to Paris, France, Vladimir [Lenin] met Paul Lafargue and researched the Paris Commune of 1871, which he saw as an early prototype for a proletarian government.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutio ... imir_Lenin

[Monti]

believe,... doctrine
[size=Arial][quote="ckaihatsu"]These aren't really the most *appropriate* terms to use, because they're usually in the domain of *religion*.

Socialism isn't a religion, contrary to what the right-wing may say.
[/size]

Socialism is not a religion, because it is a social system as capitalism. But I wrote the words "doctrine" and "believe", not for socialism but for MARXISM. Marxism is not a religion but it has much similitude with religion. There are people who believe in marxism in the same way as other ones in religion. The behaviour of some marxists is a religious-like one. And for them, communism plays the same role as heaven for christians.

[ckaihatsu]

believe,... doctrine
[size=Arial]

I just posted the following (and more), at another thread -- secularly it would be about whether one thinks that automation / AI will be humanity's *boon*, or its downfall:

Some commentators on Marx have argued that at the time he wrote the Grundrisse, he thought that the collapse of capitalism due to advancing automation was inevitable despite these counter-tendencies, but that by the time of his major work Capital: Critique of Political Economy he had abandoned this view, and came to believe that capitalism could continually renew itself unless overthrown.[29][30][31]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy

viewtopic.php?p=15239267#p15239267

[BlutoSays]

[ckaihatsu]

It really comes down to the *automation* question, as Marx noted -- if work is no longer empirically necessary, then who gets what, and how much of it -- ?

[late]

It really comes down to the *automation* question, as Marx noted -- if work is no longer empirically necessary, then who gets what, and how much of it -- ?

Or to put it more generally, who in their right mind wants to get medieval?

[ckaihatsu]

Or to put it more generally, who in their right mind wants to get medieval?

Yup -- 'no system' is *also* a system, but it's probably not the *preferable* (humane) one.

[late]

Yup -- 'no system' is *also* a system, but it's probably not the *preferable* (humane) one.

I like to say that if you act like a 3rd world country long enough, you get to be one.

The extreme inequality in my country is dragging us backwards towards a very dark time.

[ckaihatsu]

I like to say that if you act like a 3rd world country long enough, you get to be one.

Yeah, Trump certainly proved *that* for everyone.

The extreme inequality in my country is dragging us backwards towards a very dark time.

Yet, some people *still* want to keep capitalism around, as though it's 'not' the cause of income inequality.

[ckaihatsu]

Here's the *process* of income-inequality / capitalism, from a recent diagram:


material-economic exploitation

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

And:


labor and capital, side-by-side

Spoiler: show

[BlutoSays]

The cause of inequality is circumventing the feedback process of no work, no eat, which leads to people not appreciating the money they spend because it's provided by an innocent bystander (the tax payer) and using legislation as a weapon to drive competitive enterprise away.

[ckaihatsu]

The cause of inequality is circumventing the feedback process of no work, no eat, which leads to people not appreciating the money they spend because it's provided by an innocent bystander (the tax payer) and using legislation as a weapon to drive competitive enterprise away.

This is just a deification of *exchange values* -- you think that one dollar is always 'correct', yet you happen to have *your own* criticisms / critique of how such economics runs.

So *your* politics is not a 'petro-dollar', but rather a 'food-dollar'. Pitiful, really.