[ckaihatsu]

I do know that. I also know Jews were super traumatized after WWII and being rejected and turned over to the Nazis by many governments. I frankly have the view that they internalized the violence of the German Third Reich and instead of realizing what Palestineans were being subjected to? Became zealots in their need for an independent nation. Chris, Hebrew was DEAD as a language. Do you know what it takes to revive a dead language and to reconstruct some dead traditions from nothing?

That issue of Israel is super difficult. I am on the side of Palestine. Because the bottom line is you need equal human rights. Not Zionist nationalism. But go and tell a Jew that when everybody in their hour of need with the extermination camps was saying [NO] to them?

They hyper-militarized and became what they are now. Oppressive and intolerant.

One has to rise above such oppression not to become an oppressor, but to be a seeker of humane government and justice.

It is complicated as hell Chris.

I am not an expert on the Middle East or Israel. I hope you enlighten a bit Chris eh?

'Complicated' -- ?

All I have to ask is 'Why the *hedging*?'

Are you *okay* with the empirical history of how the present situation turned out to be the way it *is* today -- ?

What do *you* think?

Also:

However, this begs three crucial questions. Did the world really have to look like this in 1945? What efforts did the Allies make to open up secure routes to the West for Jewish refugees just before and during the war itself, especially as the news of the slaughter of the Jews became known? And what efforts did the Zionists make? After all, the standard pattern of Jewish emigration away from persecution had been steadily westwards for three generations. The vast majority had settled in the West. Only a tiny minority had gone to Palestine.

However despite this intense and powerfully emotional campaign, a later report to the American Jewish Congress by a Zionist organiser, Chaplain Klausner, stated that most of the refugees wanted to go to the United States. In fact Klausner’s own attitude revealed the inhuman face of Zionism. He concluded: “I am convinced that the people must be forced to go to Palestine.” [2]

This is not an isolated reaction. On point of principle the Zionists encouraged the Allies not to accept Jewish immigrants.

https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/d ... ocaust.htm

[Tainari88]

'Complicated' -- ?

All I have to ask is 'Why the *hedging*?'

Are you *okay* with the empirical history of how the present situation turned out to be the way it *is* today -- ?

What do *you* think?

Also:

No, I am not ok with how the Palestineans are forced to live. In fact, I hate it deeply.

I get sick in my stomach with a lot of what goes on today in the world Chris. The poverty, the despair, the wars, and the lack of decency.

I saw a documentary called FOR SAMA about Syrian resistance and the chemical warfare against kids. I can't watch it Chris. I get physically ill. It enrages me that some sociopath is allowed in the world to do that...

I see the Palestineans struggling to just eat and survive. Kids getting shot. It is horrific.

One person posted a picture of Armenian women being crucified and the picture was in black and white....by Turkish armies. Their long hair and beauty and they being killed like animals. It is too much for me Chris.

I stay away from that topic because colonialism and so on is already a very painful reality for me. And I really want peace.

It is very very hard for me.

I hope you forgive me for just sometimes not coping with Palestine. I get angry. And that is not good for me to be angry for long periods of time.

[ckaihatsu]

No, I am not ok with how the Palestineans are forced to live. In fact, I hate it deeply.

I get sick in my stomach with a lot of what goes on today in the world Chris. The poverty, the despair, the wars, and the lack of decency.

I saw a documentary called FOR SAMA about Syrian resistance and the chemical warfare against kids. I can't watch it Chris. I get physically ill. It enrages me that some sociopath is allowed in the world to do that...

I see the Palestineans struggling to just eat and survive. Kids getting shot. It is horrific.

One person posted a picture of Armenian women being crucified and the picture was in black and white....by Turkish armies. Their long hair and beauty and they being killed like animals. It is too much for me Chris.

I stay away from that topic because colonialism and so on is already a very painful reality for me. And I really want peace.

It is very very hard for me.

I hope you forgive me for just sometimes not coping with Palestine. I get angry. And that is not good for me to be angry for long periods of time.

I *hear* ya -- *no one* asked for this world, particularly. But it's come a long way so far -- I say keep it. (grin)

[wat0n]

...In late 1945, the UNRRA conducted several surveys among Jewish refugees, asking them to list their preferred destination for emigration. Among one population of 19,000, 18,700 named "Palestine" as their first choice, and 98% also named "Palestine" as their second choice. At the camp in Fürth, respondents were asked not to list Palestine as both their first and second choice, and 25% of the respondents then wrote "crematorium".[32]...

Interesting to see @ckaihatsu attempting to deny history.

[SkilfulDotCom]

All right!

Any faves to pass along?

I happen to like Wilde a lot, so that's my go-to:

https://www.marxists.org/reference/arch ... /soul-man/

I am not what many would call 'well read' - just a bit while convalescing after industrial accident as young man.

It seemed to make sense - but I did not need much convincing, being poor working class from 1950's Liverpool.

[Tainari88]

I *hear* ya -- *no one* asked for this world, particularly. But it's come a long way so far -- I say keep it. (grin)

The world also has such beauty. Have you been in love Chris? Where you are floating on air or flying and there is sense of union and being one with the other person el amante? Where your entire being is on fire and you are there in that vortex of feeling.....and everything you see afterwards is in harmony and full of light and happiness and joy too....

Life can be about so many beautiful things. You got to be grateful for the entirety of it eh? All the experiences of it....the joy and the sorrow. The pleasure and the pain. Everything.

I am very fortunate. I have always had deep love in this life. I have never been without it. And there is all kinds of love, that of a father, or a mother, of a friend, of a grandmother, of a child, of a student, of a colleague and of a family member.

The love of a lover and husband is great. And how the loved one feels for a baby in your body too. So many great loves...

Fromm talks about love within a psychological context. It is very interesting. Being a responsible person with society and within a family.

Love is at the center of many things. Essential. I think the world is the way it is because we don't love hard enough and we don't care deeply enough for others.

I notice that one has to love one's child from BEFORE they are even conceived to the moment of their first breath outside the womb. It is essential for the baby to thrive. But adults are not much different Chris. They also need to be loved deeply and when they are?

Todo el mundo se pinta de PAZ y tranquilidad. Hermosura y contentura, ternura y gentileza...

For me it is about perfectly loving imperfect people eh?

Socialism should be the beginning of what it is to be cared for by the many. Because the more we give of ourselves the better the world is for all of us.

Loved people in this world are always the ones with the most to give. That is a truth I have come to understand only in my last ten years.

People who lack a lot of love, have the least to give.

A song I like that is for you Chris:

It is about something soft and gentle. A tail of a cloud it says in Spanish.

Si me dijeran pide un deseo,

preferia un rabo de nube,

Lyrics in Spanish

https://www.google.com/search?q=lyrics+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

Tail of clouds
If they told me to make a wish,
I'd prefer a tail of clouds,
a whirlwind on the ground
and a great rage rising.

A sweeper of sadnesses,
a downpour of vengeance
that when it clears up might
look like our hope.

If they told me to make a wish,
I'd prefer a tail of clouds
to take away the ugly
and leave us with the cherub.

A sweeper of sadnesses,
a downpour of vengeance
that when it clears up might
look like our hope.
https://lyricstranslate.com/es/rabo-de- ... louds.html

That is what human life is like. You got the good with the bad but there is always Esperanza Chris, there is always hope.

[ckaihatsu]

Interesting to see @ckaihatsu attempting to deny history.

You've referenced the Holocaust survivor demographic, which is more specific than all Jewish immigration out of Europe generally. That's probably what the discrepancy is about.

[wat0n]

You've referenced the Holocaust survivor demographic, which is more specific than all Jewish immigration out of Europe generally. That's probably what the discrepancy is about.

Yet it was the largest group after WWII. By a lot...

[ckaihatsu]

I am not what many would call 'well read' - just a bit while convalescing after industrial accident as young man.

It seemed to make sense - but I did not need much convincing, being poor working class from 1950's Liverpool.

Well, welcome!

Maybe you've been around *mining* stuff in your lifetime -- if I recall correctly.

I'm from Chicago myself. Gen X.

[Truth To Power]

It seemed to make sense - but I did not need much convincing, being poor working class from 1950's Liverpool.

Try "Progress and Poverty" by Henry George. It is available on the Net. George was incomparably Marx's superior both as an economist and as a writer.

[Truth To Power]

I suggest you to read "Human Action" by Ludwig von Mises. You know that I defend "market socialism". The book of Mises defends liberalism against socialism. His style is bad but his arguments are strong. He dismisses very efficiently a large part of marxist credo. Every socialist should read this book. He would become stronger... but less dogmatic.

He -- and you -- would do better to read "Progress and Poverty" by Henry George, which conclusively refutes both capitalism and socialism.

[ckaihatsu]

The world also has such beauty. Have you been in love Chris? Where you are floating on air or flying and there is sense of union and being one with the other person el amante? Where your entire being is on fire and you are there in that vortex of feeling.....and everything you see afterwards is in harmony and full of light and happiness and joy too....

Life can be about so many beautiful things. You got to be grateful for the entirety of it eh? All the experiences of it....the joy and the sorrow. The pleasure and the pain. Everything.

I am very fortunate. I have always had deep love in this life. I have never been without it. And there is all kinds of love, that of a father, or a mother, of a friend, of a grandmother, of a child, of a student, of a colleague and of a family member.

The love of a lover and husband is great. And how the loved one feels for a baby in your body too. So many great loves...

Fromm talks about love within a psychological context. It is very interesting. Being a responsible person with society and within a family.

Love is at the center of many things. Essential. I think the world is the way it is because we don't love hard enough and we don't care deeply enough for others.

I notice that one has to love one's child from BEFORE they are even conceived to the moment of their first breath outside the womb. It is essential for the baby to thrive. But adults are not much different Chris. They also need to be loved deeply and when they are?

Todo el mundo se pinta de PAZ y tranquilidad. Hermosura y contentura, ternura y gentileza...

For me it is about perfectly loving imperfect people eh?

Socialism should be the beginning of what it is to be cared for by the many. Because the more we give of ourselves the better the world is for all of us.

Loved people in this world are always the ones with the most to give. That is a truth I have come to understand only in my last ten years.

People who lack a lot of love, have the least to give.

A song I like that is for you Chris:

It is about something soft and gentle. A tail of a cloud it says in Spanish.

https:// youtu.be/bcoTl3j5Nz4

Si me dijeran pide un deseo,

preferia un rabo de nube,

Lyrics in Spanish

https://www.google.com/search?q=lyrics+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

Tail of clouds
If they told me to make a wish,
I'd prefer a tail of clouds,
a whirlwind on the ground
and a great rage rising.

A sweeper of sadnesses,
a downpour of vengeance
that when it clears up might
look like our hope.

If they told me to make a wish,
I'd prefer a tail of clouds
to take away the ugly
and leave us with the cherub.

A sweeper of sadnesses,
a downpour of vengeance
that when it clears up might
look like our hope.
https://lyricstranslate.com/es/rabo-de- ... louds.html

That is what human life is like. You got the good with the bad but there is always Esperanza Chris, there is always hope.

Thanks for sharing, as ever, Tainari. Best to you and yours.

I'm glad that you, for one, have it all-worked-out at the social-*psychological* level, like I've singlehandedly done at the *socio-material* realm. Translation: Free sex toys for everyone under communism.


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show

https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338

[ckaihatsu]

Yet it was the largest group after WWII. By a lot...

You're every bit as fun as I remember you being....

[Tainari88]

Thanks for sharing, as ever, Tainari. Best to you and yours.

I'm glad that you, for one, have it all-worked-out at the social-*psychological* level, like I've singlehandedly done at the *socio-material* realm. Translation: Free sex toys for everyone under communism.


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show

https://web.archive.org/web/20201211050 ... ?p=2889338

When are you going to go out on a date and have fun?

You know you are a good man. Buen corazon.

[ckaihatsu]

When are you going to go out on a date and have fun?

You know you are a good man. Buen corazon.

Thanks, *Mom* -- I think you have some Mom things to get back to right now. (grin)

[Tainari88]

Thanks, *Mom* -- I think you have some Mom things to get back to right now. (grin)

You are right. I would wind up feeding you and telling you if you have eaten enough...lol.

[SkilfulDotCom]

Well, welcome!

Maybe you've been around *mining* stuff in your lifetime -- if I recall correctly.

I'm from Chicago myself. Gen X.

Cheers Ckaihatsu.

Chicago - Chicago that toddling town?

[ckaihatsu]

Cheers Ckaihatsu.

Chicago - Chicago that toddling town?

You bet yer bippie.


= D

[ckaihatsu]

You are right. I would wind up feeding you and telling you if you have eaten enough...lol.

Jeez, I got into politics to *prevent* this kind of thing....


= D

[SkilfulDotCom]

Try "Progress and Poverty" by Henry George. It is available on the Net. George was incomparably Marx's superior both as an economist and as a writer.

Thanks Truth To Power - I am critical of economists so will put it on the reading list.

Wiki: It is a treatise on the questions of why poverty accompanies economic and technological progress and why economies exhibit a tendency toward cyclical boom and bust.