skinster wrote:I'm not going by any political score, but by what you have posted here.
And Michael Harrington was a social democrat like you are, so this fits.
You are a radical liberal (socdem) who supports other radlibs, people like AOC, someone who also pretends capitalism can be reformed, although in your case I think you believe that sincerely whereas AOC is clearly acting in her role as a radical Democrat. You have been sucked in by neolib identity politics and believe because she is a brown woman, that she has your interests at heart.
She does not.
All socdems call themselves socialists, and I suppose they can, but people like me consider them nothing more than radical liberals because that is what they are when you analyse the positions they hold. They are okay with having a pretty capitalism that obviously can't exist today - as our rulers have been showing us for decades - but that's their aim.
Another social democrat party.
You think capitalists will let you change their system by asking nicely or if you vote them out? 
Gandhi was a paedophile and racist, worked with colonialists and supported apartheid so, let's not get into him and all the mythology about him in the Western world. His likely promoted as a non-violent actors to delude people into thinking non-violence is effective.
And where has this worked? Do you think the creators of the first socialist state gained it by civil disobedience? Do you think China and the DPRK and Cuba got their socialist states via peacefully protesting?
Hardly. It has happened on occasion but not regarding greater goals such as changing the system.
Your mother is correct.
Of course my mother is correct. Lol. Mothers are always right. Except when they are bad moms. A few of those around for sure. Hee hee.
Skins, I need some evidence that Gandhi was a pedo and racist. Now he was a Brahmin and in the Indian caste system was very classist. Brahmins being the top caste. So, I might believe he was a bit classist based on his culture. He was religious and disciplined about it. He was also a lawyer influenced by the English legal system. That is true. Was it a racist institution? Yes it was. But that he was himself a racist? Need some evidence to believe that Skinster. His behavior was of a religious Hindu, from the Brahmin class, and into national liberation and having government meet the needs of the people. That was true as well. Many people in history have contradictory aspects. All of us have that. It does not erase a person's accomplishments in life if they have flaws. Everyone has flaws. Perfection with humans is not possible for many reasons. Including our genes and our environments.
As for violence being the history of revolutionary changes? You are correct. Violence is the usual method that is the quickest and fastest way to seize power. It also corrupts in its violence. People commit barbaric acts trying to get their group or they themselves to get that power and lose all perspective of why they want the power. Is it to serve the humblest of the society? Or are they not much different than the people they wanted to seize power from?
@Rich made a valid point about what some supposed Communist leaders have claimed to stand for. And many failed to do what is true communist theory. And that is allow working people to have the lead role in a society. Instead it becomes about egos and power trips. A human defect. Rich is right about that. Do I think Communist theory is extremely intelligent and well thought out? Yes. But can it be implemented in time in a realistic way? The jury is still out on that one Skinster. It has not been done with all the right conditions. It depends on really sharing power with the working class that is
educated well.As for violence? What does violence mean? It means any form of dialogue is unproductive, and there is an absolute lack of understanding or caring present about blowing others away. It will cause pain of the worst sort to the families of the people you hate or disagree with. You gave a final end to someone who had to be born, had to be fed, had to be taught and had to be socialized for years and years to get to the point of being an adult, holding an opinion, and in some cases being married, having children and being responsible for other people and other lives. You kill them. That is final. They won't be thinking, or reflecting, or able to make new choices. It is all an imposition of your will on their bodies. Your will. Your ego. Your need to control. Does it transform the society for the better over a long period of time? No, it makes them hate your guts. And with good reason. It also retards real progress. Your value system includes force and control. Not much different than what the capitalists do in those cases.
You do not win the moral high ground. Now, if you are in your home and some cabrón busts through your door with a gun to end your life and the life of your kids and your spouse? Do you have the right to defend yourself? Yes you do. It is not against someone living in their country, minding their own business, and being peaceful. It is against some aggressor and invader who wants to end your existence and you along with others have a right to exist. You defend yourself.
Sure, revolutionary has been necessary but it is the avenue of last resort when all dialogue breaks down and there is a total lack of respect, lack of trust and lack of ability to create unity. It is suicidal in behavior. Much like climate destruction and nuclear proliferation that some advocates think is acceptable for humanity to pursue. It is not. It never will be.
Violence Skins is a failure to reach our humane and human potential. To allow the chimps and xenophobia programming in our genes to win over that 2% and the peace loving Bonobo programming in our genes. And the truth is we do have the potential to reach that better self. It takes a lot of work. But so did ridding ourselves of slavery that lasted for thousands of years. But, even with the defects of capitalism wage slavery gave us one freedom. You can leave the capitalist employer and go to the next one and not be stuck with just one bastard for all time. You can do what you do Skins and not be working your ass off for the benefit of some other bastard who only wants to exploit.
The next step is making sure workers like you are skins, get real security. A home. An apartment. A pension, and health care, and guaranteed love and respect by society. That is the kind of socialist I am. We have not even gotten a little bit of that kind of socialism yet. Have a long road to traverse to even get there on a worldwide scale. A lot of work to do. Shooting up the world is what the US random crazies are doing. I am more worried about education for my kids, and other kids here in Mexico. And being productive in society. The Mexicans got enough problems with feminicides and drug dealers serving the drug addicts demanding their wares in the USA and Canada. All societies have issues. You got to pick out what issue you want to help with and dedicate yourself to that.
If world leaders would dedicate themselves to eradicating their society's lacks FIRST, instead of wanting to control shit that was lost long ago to some greedy fucks from the past? We might have some real progress Skins.
Instead, we got a series of egomaniacs out of touch with real working peoples' problems, on a course to self destruction. Plenty of work to be done. Always.
In terms of who the PIP is? Again Ruben Berrios Martinez led the SI Socialists International. It is a coalition of parties. Some in Europe, some in Africa and in Asia and all over the world. Puerto Rico led that entire group through him. It is not just one social democrat, or socialist group Skins. It was a diverse group. My mother always said if you wait for ideal people to join you in your quest for justice the ones who agree with you about every issue in the world, and they got to be pure....and Latino, and eat rice and beans, and dance salsa and do this or that? To be the right people to lead? You will wind up Skins having meetings in the back of a Volkswagen. The entire group of people will wind up there. The ones who agree one hundred percent with you on all things. I do not know your twin. But I bet she differs from you on many things doesn't she?
If the twin of yours differs imagine others like me and others on here who are either Commies like Potemkin and Deustchmania etc, or socialists like Random American and others, or self professed anarchists who are a bit conservative like Rancid and liberal too like Rancid, etc. Or people who do not like socialism like Noemon who's father is socialist.
Diversity is a fact of life and of governments and of movements. But out of many diverse people coming together to make change happen it takes a sense of identification with humans. Loving them regardless of how weird they get in this life. Defend life. Always. That is what the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was about. The UN was supposed to be about preventing another WWII. It has been undermined and manipulated. But it still is an international voice.
Got to start somewhere out of the mess humanity and capitalism has made of planet Earth. Thinking we got to be purists is not the answer Skins.
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