How are energy credits different from asset-backed money? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The solving of mankind’s problems and abolition of government via technological solutions alone.

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#14104184
The above replies correct, energy credits are a lot like asset-backed money because you can trade with them and their amount depends on the amount of goods and services in the world (instead of the number of credit default swaps and speed of the printing presses), but the major difference is that energy credits are an accounting measure that you can't pocket after a sale.
#14104556
Actually, Poelmo, energy credits are nothing like asset-back currency, or currency at all. It was a suggestion from the early days of Technocracy Inc., in the '20's, for useful accounting of consumption. That's all it ever was- a proposal for energy accounting. However, given contemporary technology levels, energy accounting need not involve a credit of any kind. A store merely needs to account for the products being distributed, such as a check-out counter, that can be accounted for live-time with a loop back to warehouses and production centers. In fact, if you've seen the "Suzie's Lemonade" commercials, you'll realize that business management already uses systems like it for vending machines, etc.

In other words, even the proposal for energy credits is obsolete, tracking takes places automatically today and accounting for consumption in Technocracy would be a streamlined process.
#14104826
I suppose it could be managed.

However since technocracy assumes a level of technological advancement that has almost all production automated I see no reason why it would need to take power.

People will just use the technology because it's cheaper, and as it shrinks (see 3d printers), they will produce at home.

This looks more like a vision of what technology might do in the future rather than an actual political system. :hmm:
#14104878
If their is no scarcity due to technology then people will produce at home because it's cheaper due to distance and essentially free. Similarly other productions in a world without scarce basic resources would follow the same lines as online open source communities and programs like Wikipedia and Linux.

The system would break down not force evy one else to it.

IMHO. :hmm:
#14104896
mikema63 wrote:If their is no scarcity due to technology then people will produce at home because it's cheaper due to distance and essentially free. Similarly other productions in a world without scarce basic resources would follow the same lines as online open source communities and programs like Wikipedia and Linux.

The system would break down not force evy one else to it.

IMHO. :hmm:


Things that can be produced at home will most likely be produced at home. Nobody will want to connect their electrical network to a community network that could fail, in a few years. They will simply install some PV panels, an inverter and a few batteries. Microgeneration is most certainly the future.

But that's unrealistic for most things. I mean, yeah, if your kid wants a toy car, you can simply download the code and make one in your 3D printer. But there is a limit there. You can't make gold out of a 3D printer, for example. Jewelry would still need to be consumed outside. And you can't make beer or get a bottle of coke from a 3D printer either. One [i]could[/u] have machines to make several kinds of products, but the space they have at home is always limited. There will be stuff that will need to be brought from the outside.

And that wouldn't be a problem anyway. people don't go outside to buy a software anymore, as you noted well. And we don't live in a technocracy! Open-source is also the future (even for hardware), but that doesn't mean everyone will be able to produce everything at home.
#14104965
Beer can most certainly be produced at home, in fact batteries motors are already printable and they are actually working on microchips so whole computers may be done.

I don't see all production going to the home obviously but I do see many if not all "neccesities" being at least possible if not done.
#14105041
And that wouldn't be a problem anyway. people don't go outside to buy a software anymore, as you noted well.


Oh yea that's why there are no game shops, I must imagine the ones I see in town. :lol:

What a load of nonsense, you "digital age" types have no idea how people really live.
#14105206
mikema63 wrote:Beer can most certainly be produced at home, in fact batteries motors are already printable and they are actually working on microchips so whole computers may be done.

I don't see all production going to the home obviously but I do see many if not all "neccesities" being at least possible if not done.


:| That's exactly what I wrote.

None of that makes technocracy impossible, though. It actually makes it more likely. And without the need of a massive central planning of the means of production. :p

If a person can produce most stuff at home, all he will need to live will be the base resources to produce it. And those, as noted before, are highly abundant.

Decky wrote:Oh yea that's why there are no game shops, I must imagine the ones I see in town. :lol:

What a load of nonsense, you "digital age" types have no idea how people really live.


:eh:
Physical music stores, game shops, video rental stores etc have all dropped in numbers significantly in the past few decades... That is a fact.

Perhaps technology hasn't arrived in Britain yet...
#14105546
Copyrights should only be applied to a commercial transaction, and patents should be eliminated outright. They're helping prevent the advancement of new technology and research, and only serve to rake in more capital to the already dominant corporations.
#14105723
If by "not functional", you mean it'd allow filesharing- yes. If you mean it wouldn't prevent one company from violating the right of another- no. You couldn't have local movie stores burning DVD's, for instance.

Patents, however, have no practical purpose but to prevent competition and study. Trade secrets would still be permitted, but research and new ideas couldn't be prevented from being utilized. With patents, we see two levels of failure- when they don't work, and when they do. For the technology sector, there's no evidence that they help protect new businesses, and they increase the cost of healthcare by approx. 30%. What they do end up doing is preventing other companies from researching ideas that are patent-protected by other companies, halting new technologies and healthcare innovation.
#14106173
Figlio di Moros wrote:In other words, even the proposal for energy credits is obsolete, tracking takes places automatically today and accounting for consumption in Technocracy would be a streamlined process.


They have to be some form of currency for rationing purposes, you don't want to starve because your neighbor ordered 15.000 private jets while you were asleep and now there's no energy left to produce food for you anymore. You also want to prevent ordering stuff in amounts that exceed energy generation. Energy credits really have to be limited in number and there have to be limits to how much one person can order, in other words, non-transferable currency.
#14106263
Kolzene wrote:I'm not sure where you got your information, but what you are talking about is not Technocracy. No one in a Technocracy can "order 15,000 private jets" simply because there is no private ownership, so they can't even own one. The reason for this is in good part the problem that you describe, in that it invites waste like this. What people can do is fly wherever they want, whenever they want, so why would they want the bother of owning a plane at all when there would be functionally no difference?


Make it 150 billion toothbrushes or 15 billion t-shirts then, the point is there is always some level of private ownership, even in technocracy, unless you're thinking of some variant where a computer mandates the number of toothbrushes and t-shirts you receive per cycle (instead of just the amount of energy you can consume), leaving no lifestyle choices for the individual.

Kolzene wrote:And I see that this meme is a tough one to kill, so I'll just reiterate here that "energy credits" is not a Technocracy term, there are no such things in Technocracy.


They are according to the European technocracy chapter: http://wiki.eoslife.eu/index.php/Energy ... gy_Credits
#14106406
Kolzene wrote:Remember that Technocracy is an economic system, not a political one, one that does not require any political system, so it will not need to "take power" in the political sense.


This doesn't really make sense. Being organized and having power relations between different parts of society makes it political as well.

You might not have any elections, parties, ideologies etc. As long as positions and tasks are distributed, the system will be political. If we look at a chart of corporate organization, we will see that it is a political organization chart:
Image

The same goes for the model defended by Technocracy (the image is from your own website):
Image

It is just not the same political system we use nowadays. In fact, it is something completely novel. But it is still a political organization system.

Considering politics is related to the power elations between individuals and groups of individuals, it is impossible to get rid of politics in the human society. The only way to do that is by isolating each person from the rest of society. :hmm:
#14106456
Kolzene wrote:You can still have in place mechanisms to recognize problems like this without resorting to rationing. If someone orders an anomalous amount of toothbrushes, it would be up to the Sequence of Social Relations to investigate. Perhaps they have a good reason for it, such as a specific art project, or some social function. Then an increased amount could be allowed. Perhaps it was simply an error, like a typo. Or perhaps they are under a great deal of emotional distress and are acting irrationally and need help. Such an investigation would figure out the cause, and determine an appropriate solution to it. And disallowing amounts that are largely anomalous does not in any way impinge on a person's lifestyle choices. The laws of the Technate centre on keeping the Technate functioning, and being simply wasteful is against that. But it's not like it would require a arrest and court appearance; the likelihood of anyone doing any such thing is extremely small, and an investigation by the SSR would even then most likely resolve the issue to everyone's satisfaction.


You do realize how inefficient and complicated it would be to judge every transaction in this manner and what exactly would you have in mind as a solution when the person ordering too much has no good reason? Anyway, the site you linked to below does talk of a rationing system.

Kolzene wrote:That group is not a "chapter" of Technocracy, nor do they endorse Technocracy as it has been proposed by the Technical Alliance and Technocracy Inc., they have their own ideas about what is best for Europe and sometimes borrow ideas from Technocracy and even occasionally use that word. They even changed their name in order to reflect this fact. They are not a good source of information about the subject. You are better off to go here: http://www.technocracy.ca


Thanks for the link, now I know where you're coming from, but that site does talk about energy credits, only it calls them "energy certificates":

"Every adult above 25 years of age will receive as his share of purchasing power an equal part of the total net consumed energy, and from birth to the twenty-fifth year every individual will receive a maintenance allowance.

The certificate will be issued directly to the the individual. It is non-transferable and non-negotiable, and therefore it cannot be stolen, lost, loaned, borrowed, or given away. It is non-cumulative, therefore cannot be saved; and does not bear interest. It need not be spent but loses its validity after a designated time period."

This is exactly what I meant by the term "energy credit" and it also does describe a rationing system.

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