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By AFAIK
#14270153
I’m trying to understand how a bureaucracy would handle social issues within a technate. How would technocrats respond to the following phenomena…….?

Kleptomaniacs
Dangerous items- guns, acid, chemicals, heavy machinery
Currently different countries have different laws regarding drink driving, age limits, standards of tests for potential drivers, etc. How would driving be regulated within a technate?
Wild animals as pets
Risk of overdose from drugs
Risk of long term health effects such as carcinogenic drugs
Risk of obesity and diabetes due to diet.
Gambling- will I be able to play poker?
Dispute resolution- noisy neighbours, construction of buildings that would overlook someone’s garden, light pollution.
Would people be segregated? For example nudist beaches would allow nudity whilst other beaches would require clothing.
Competing interests. Would the use of speed boats be restricted in a national park?
#14271424
AFAIK wrote:Kleptomaniacs


No social harm done, so psychological and medicinal treatment might suffice.

Dangerous items- guns, acid, chemicals, heavy machinery


There are regulations which exist today, such regulations would likely occur under any reasonable system.

Currently different countries have different laws regarding drink driving, age limits, standards of tests for potential drivers, etc. How would driving be regulated within a technate?


POV's wouldn't be a big issue, 80% of the population lives in cities currently and it might increase. Public transportation and mass transit would take care of most issues. There might be car shares for some travel among urbanites, and POV's would still be a requirement for rural residents.

In the interim between the establishment of a technocracy and viable self-driving cars, which are perhaps ten to twenty years away already, people would be required to obtain a license and follow certain regulations, such as obeying road signs.

Wild animals as pets


What's the current law? Probably that.

Risk of overdose from drugs; Risk of long term health effects such as carcinogenic drugs


Are you asking how Technocracy would deal w/ drug use? Same as w/ other antisocial behaviors- rehabilitation, behavioral-cognitive treatment, gene therapy or prison where applicable.

Risk of obesity and diabetes due to diet.


This is an interesting one, because current solutions draw on price signals to nudge people in the proper direction. Gyms, trails, outdoor activities, etc. would be free, but so would food; you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Without being able to resort to price signaling to encourage people to select healthier food (which we should be doing under our current system), we'd have to simple disallow certain foods that present risk of over consumption. This, of course, does not mean people will choose to eat moderately, but there's little we could do about that.

Since a technocracy would control the food supply, an easier solution would simply be not to have unhealthy foods be commercially available. Whomever oversees crop production and distribution would be responsible for ensuring the nutritional quality of our food supply is acceptable. Processed foods such as snack cakes or coke would not be on the market; I'd suggest it so no foods above a certain glycemic load or possessing PUFAs to be allowed. Further, advances in aeroponic chambers is advancing quickly, and aeroponic-grass is more efficient and quicker to grow than grain-feed, meaning factory-farmed meats could be grass fed and phage-therapy treated instead of force fed antibiotics. The same changes in growing-chamber technology would make vegetable production incredibly efficient, so that it could be grown inside city limits and readily available.

At the same time, we need to encourage a healthy lifestyle. As I already mentioned, gyms would be free and trails would be available, plus people would have the leisure time to enjoy them if they so choose. Without fees necessary, there would also be a berth of local sports leagues as well to encourage people to engage in an active lifestyle.

Gambling- will I be able to play poker?


Sure, why wouldn't you? Of course, the stakes would never be so high.

Dispute resolution- noisy neighbours, construction of buildings that would overlook someone’s garden, light pollution.


What makes you believe it'd be greatly different than it is now?

Would people be segregated? For example nudist beaches would allow nudity whilst other beaches would require clothing.


It depends on local law, but such a debate would have to be taken at the appropriate level. Nude beaches are a rather minor issue, and I'm sure reasonable accommodations can be made.

Competing interests. Would the use of speed boats be restricted in a national park?


Of course, speedboats are disruptive to wildlife. It'd be like asking if we'd allow unregulated hunting, mining, and drilling across our national parks- we're not capitalists.
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By AFAIK
#14271689
So there is a legislature like a senate or parliament? Or something more local like a council?

Vis-avis drugs- Is there prohibition or rationing? All things in moderation doesn't really translate to post scarcity.

What if 1/3rd of the population is pro choice, 1/3rd is pro life and 1/3rd believe abortion should be allowed up to 24 weeks?
By mikema63
#14271767
Technocracy can promise all it likes but experts call the shots and not the people.

Otherwise it wouldn't be a technocracy.
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By AFAIK
#14273547
mikema63 wrote:Technocracy can promise all it likes but experts call the shots and not the people.

Otherwise it wouldn't be a technocracy.


So who passes laws?
Which drugs are legal? Which illegal?
Who sets priorities regarding environmental protection, frontier exploration and development or migration?

Using N America as a hypothetical, which legislatures will survive the transition and in what form?
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By AFAIK
#14273623
I'm asking how much autonomy society would have.

Technocracy.ca's website uses the tagline- "Advocating the control of technology, not people."

But their articles suggest that technocrats would make decisions that would proscribe people's freedom- by top-down designing of cities filled with public housing for example.

If you expect millions of people to place their faith and trust in the hope that technocrats will be benevolent leaders who can function without democratic influence then you're ideas will be dismissed out of hand.

Is there a technical answer to abortion?
Who decides where to direct resources?

Any clues available?
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By Eran
#14273879
Figlio di Moros wrote:No social harm done, so psychological and medicinal treatment might suffice.

Seriously? No social harm associated with theft?

Gyms, trails, outdoor activities, etc. would be free, but so would food;

I apologise if I am taking the Technocracy discussion back. Feel free to direct me to more basic discussions and/or resources.

Wouldn't items being free require that no human effort is required to generate them? Is it the expectation that food production would be fully-automated? What about cooking? Innovation by way of developing new menu items? Maintenance of the machines responsible for food production? All fully automated?

In the alternative, how are the people involved in any of the stages of the food production process going to be compensated, if food is free?

How do you control for waste in an environment in which food is free?

we'd have to simple disallow certain foods that present risk of over consumption.

So no chocolate and no ice-cream in a Technocracy?
By mikema63
#14273926
Wouldn't items being free require that no human effort is required to generate them? Is it the expectation that food production would be fully-automated? What about cooking? Innovation by way of developing new menu items? Maintenance of the machines responsible for food production? All fully automated?


It's theoretically possible in the long term, robotics and computing make great leaps everyday after all.

In the alternative, how are the people involved in any of the stages of the food production process going to be compensated, if food is free?


Technocracy generally advocates automation as much as currently possible and a work schedule set up for all necessary jobs. I think technocracy inc. suggested 20 hour work weeks for three years with a 6 year break inbetween, staggered of course so there would be someone there at all times. Instead of getting directly paid it would be considered a duty for living in the society, you could be exiled for noncompliance for instance.

So no chocolate and no ice-cream in a Technocracy?


More likely it would be rationed out as a luxury item. I would guess that the free part of free food would be three meals a day with the nutritional value of each meal set at the direction of a doctor.
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By Eran
#14273948
mikema63 wrote:It's theoretically possible in the long term, robotics and computing make great leaps everyday after all.

Sure - one day computers will be so much smarter than us, that it will make little sense to employ humans at all. Though why we believe those super-smart computers will have any intention of serving us is a different matter...

Be that as it may, we aren't talking about anything in the immediate future, are we?

More likely it would be rationed out as a luxury item. I would guess that the free part of free food would be three meals a day with the nutritional value of each meal set at the direction of a doctor.

The quality of the food we eat (in terms of variety and convenience, at least) keeps advancing.

Is it the expectation that the free allotment would advance as well? If so, how would that advance be driven?
By mikema63
#14273961
Sure - one day computers will be so much smarter than us, that it will make little sense to employ humans at all. Though why we believe those super-smart computers will have any intention of serving us is a different matter...

Be that as it may, we aren't talking about anything in the immediate future, are we?


Quantum computers are being developed currently, and moores law is a ridiculous but powerful trend. We don't need AI to develop cheap computers and cheap basic robotics.

Curently computer technology exists that allows a robot to learn a task by watching it preformed and program itself to preform it.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2390277,00.asp

Certainly such robots are quite expensive, but so too were room sized computers less than 100 years ago, and since technology follows an exponential growth curve rather than a linear one...call me an optimist but 50 years from now unskilled labor may cease to exist in countries like the US.

The quality of the food we eat (in terms of variety and convenience, at least) keeps advancing.

Is it the expectation that the free allotment would advance as well? If so, how would that advance be driven?


Most advance in things will be due to people who choose to work on something of their own free will, people who simply love cooking and food may do this as a hobby. It's also perfectly possible that the free food allotment may simply be in ingredients if you prefer and you can cook your own meals rather than take something pre-prepared. The work of someone elses cooking will either be from friendship, a community affair, or simply a luxury outing to a restaurant.

I honestly believe that absent the absolute material need, people will continue to do things out of their own personal desires. I do not think most people would just veg out on the couch if they had the option.
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By Eran
#14274266
Quantum computers are being developed currently, and moores law is a ridiculous but powerful trend. We don't need AI to develop cheap computers and cheap basic robotics.

I accept that computers and basic robots will get progressively cheaper (although the decline in cost of mechanical components necessary for a robot isn't nearly as rapid as that of the electronic components).

However, computers and robots would need to get much smarter to replace many (though not all) current human functions.

Most advance in things will be due to people who choose to work on something of their own free will, people who simply love cooking and food may do this as a hobby.

I have recently watched a TV program about how supermarkets bring food to their shelves. Of particular relevance was the research and development that went into converting an already-existing restaurant dish into a supermarket ready meal.

Unlike the development of original recipes (which I can easily see done on a voluntary basis), that latter phase is no fun at all.


But more to the point - in a world in which many functions are done on a voluntary basis, what mechanism exists to align what people are working on producing, with what consumers want?

One of the most important features of the capitalist system is that the link between consumer preferences and entrepreneurial motivation is based on the willingness of the former to pay, and the profit motive of the latter. By severing both, wouldn't you be killing to engine of progress towards ever-greater consumer preference satisfaction?
#14274883
Eran wrote:Seriously? No social harm associated with theft?


In a technocracy? Nope, no social harm.

Wouldn't items being free require that no human effort is required to generate them? Is it the expectation that food production would be fully-automated? What about cooking? Innovation by way of developing new menu items? Maintenance of the machines responsible for food production? All fully automated?


Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope. Free means you don't pay for it; the rest is just silly. I suggest you look at aeroponic chambers, which I've brought up elsewhere; not automated, but mechanized- factory-farmed organic, literally. There are automated pickers, however, and w/ self-driving cars becoming more effective, even that would barely be anything w/ out a aeroponic station in a city.

In the alternative, how are the people involved in any of the stages of the food production process going to be compensated, if food is free?


With pride in their work. It might surprise you because you're a soulless libertarian, but some people actually enjoy things and take pride in working hard because they enjoy it.

How do you control for waste in an environment in which food is free?


Interesting question. Higher social status for minimalists, just like how smoking is seen as low-class today.

So no chocolate and no ice-cream in a Technocracy?


Dark chocolate and pemmican (sic?).

Eran wrote:Sure - one day computers will be so much smarter than us, that it will make little sense to employ humans at all. Though why we believe those super-smart computers will have any intention of serving us is a different matter... Be that as it may, we aren't talking about anything in the immediate future, are we?


Untrue, not only in that there's no need for sentient computing, but that it doesn't take much brain power to do much of what anyone does. The whole of the IRS could be performed by a single algorithm w/ no need for filing at all. For many middle-wage workers, this is their job; you don't need a person to answer phones, and even the existing machines are behind the capacity of technology to respond to people. Again, a single computer could perform the function of an entire call center. Not to mention, call centers and the financial sector wouldn't exist, so none of those jobs would.

The quality of the food we eat (in terms of variety and convenience, at least) keeps advancing.


Yeah, that's why vegetables are more and more expensive and our crops have increasing amounts of carcinogens, right?

Is it the expectation that the free allotment would advance as well? If so, how would that advance be driven?


By scientists and engineers, rather than held back by the greed of financial capital. FFS, we've had MagLev trains for thirty years and hardly a sprawl has been made, yet it would dramatically reduce transportation costs and replace fleets of truckers and mountains of diesel consumption. It took fifty years for private capital to scrap the outside of space after the Soviets launched their first satellite. Why on earth would anybody entrust progress to a group known for epic failure after epic failure in innovation, who can't even play catch-up to federal research? By listening to half-baked ideologies about how efficient markets are and great businessmen are, we've crippled the real innovators of progress, the government. The people who build the Erie Canal, Panama, Suez, the interstate system and the autobahn, and told them "No, no more making us look like drooling dimwits. All this 'scientific research', 'computers', 'atomic power', 'space race', 'the internet'- you're just making us look bad."
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By Eran
#14275491
In a technocracy? Nope, no social harm.

I guess you are thinking - if everything is free anyway, what's the harm in stealing?

But as I understand it, even a technocarcy would have luxury products which aren't free. Further, people will always have items which are of personal or sentimental value to them. Having those stolen seems to me to carry a distinctive social harm.

I suggest you look at aeroponic chambers, which I've brought up elsewhere; not automated, but mechanized- factory-farmed organic, literally. There are automated pickers, however, and w/ self-driving cars becoming more effective, even that would barely be anything w/ out a aeroponic station in a city.

OK. So food production isn't fully-automated. It still requires human effort and possibly the use of other scarce resources. Yet food is provided for free. How are the resources (human or otherwise) used for food distribution going to be funded? Taxes?

With pride in their work. It might surprise you because you're a soulless libertarian, but some people actually enjoy things and take pride in working hard because they enjoy it.

Am I soulless because I am a libertarian? Or am I a libertarian because I am soulless?

To the point, people do take pride in their work. However, are you seriously suggesting basing an essential aspect of running society exclusively on the availability of people willing to work for free? What is your contingency plan? What if certain critical but unpleasant/boring/skilful jobs find no volunteers? "Sorry, no bread today, as our volunteer bakers didn't show up last night"?

Interesting question. Higher social status for minimalists, just like how smoking is seen as low-class today.

Which pushes smokers to do so in the privacy of their own home. I can see how waste would be driven underground, though obviously not eliminated.

it doesn't take much brain power to do much of what anyone does.

Then why are so many independent and cost-conscious companies waste billions on paying humans?

Yeah, that's why vegetables are more and more expensive and our crops have increasing amounts of carcinogens, right?

That's why you can buy packets of chopped onion and ready-mixed salad, a wide range of ready meals, as well as pre-seasoned meat ready for cooking.

By scientists and engineers, rather than held back by the greed of financial capital. FFS, we've had MagLev trains for thirty years and hardly a sprawl has been made, yet it would dramatically reduce transportation costs and replace fleets of truckers and mountains of diesel consumption.

It is your view then, that advanced cost-saving technologies are being suppressed as part of a vast conspiracy?
#14275655
Eran wrote:I guess you are thinking - if everything is free anyway, what's the harm in stealing?

But as I understand it, even a technocarcy would have luxury products which aren't free. Further, people will always have items which are of personal or sentimental value to them. Having those stolen seems to me to carry a distinctive social harm.


That's anti-social behavior, but not socially disruptive. Furthermore, the "luxury items" are not uber-expensive as in today, but simply limited; it'd be as if someone pocketed your lighter and you had to go without for a while, until you could grab another. The possibilities for obtaining limited items, not produced by the technocracy, would be somewhere between gift economy and mutual credit; all it would take to obtain a fur coat is to know someone who enjoys making fur. If you intend to drink, you might want to befriend the guy who's known for an exceptionally good home brew or distillery.

OK. So food production isn't fully-automated. It still requires human effort and possibly the use of other scarce resources. Yet food is provided for free. How are the resources (human or otherwise) used for food distribution going to be funded? Taxes?


You don't seem to be grasping this- there is no money. Agriculture requires 2% of the population to produce a massive surplus, about twice as much as an American can eat; new systems would dramatically reduce that input of labor. You're talking about only needing 1 in 150ish people to choose to be a farmer w/ our current agricultural system; mechanization would reduce that further, an automated aeroponic system easily increasing it by another two orders of magnitude.

Any other resources are going to be obtained in the same manner, for free. There are no need for taxes because there is no money, at least not in any meaningful, systemic sense.

Am I soulless because I am a libertarian? Or am I a libertarian because I am soulless?


Both in equal measure.

To the point, people do take pride in their work. However, are you seriously suggesting basing an essential aspect of running society exclusively on the availability of people willing to work for free? What is your contingency plan? What if certain critical but unpleasant/boring/skilful jobs find no volunteers? "Sorry, no bread today, as our volunteer bakers didn't show up last night"?


What does a business do, fire them and replace them? People are more naturally motivated by intrinsic than profit motive and perform better, and gene-culture coevolution would lend to that being more and more true under post-scarcity.

Interesting question. Higher social status for minimalists, just like how smoking is seen as low-class today.

Which pushes smokers to do so in the privacy of their own home. I can see how waste would be driven underground, though obviously not eliminated.


It's impossible to hide that you'e a smoker, and the per capita level of smokers has dropped in the last fifty years, and will likely continue to. What pushes smoking "underground" are laws prohibiting smoking in certain locations and work regulations; I've been contemplating quitting myself because it'd up my SMV, not because of cost/health/etc.

it doesn't take much brain power to do much of what anyone does.
Then why are so many independent and cost-conscious companies waste billions on paying humans?


As I explained before, they can't afford new systems; particularly, the private debt-asset ratio is prohibitively high right now for much reinvestments, and the cost of implementing new systems, or even creating them, are not profitable. At the same time, you have laws like the one going through NC (last I heard) prohibiting the sale of cars directly from the manufacturer to consumers w/ out car dealers, and you also have cultural preferences currently against robots. People don't want to "talk to a machine" (I prefer it, tbh), but it doesn't mean call centers couldn't and shouldn't be automated. It doesn't mean 3D printing won't kill sales. It doesn't mean self-driving forklifts couldn't increase productivity. Most of all, it doesn't mean economies of scale are completely unimportant in the lack of functionality in this world.

Yeah, that's why vegetables are more and more expensive and our crops have increasing amounts of carcinogens, right?
That's why you can buy packets of chopped onion and ready-mixed salad, a wide range of ready meals, as well as pre-seasoned meat ready for cooking.


That's a non-sequitor; I could give two shits about the variety if healthy food is increasingly unaffordable. Congrats, you've produced three ways to kill people with diabetes and nutrient-deficiencies instead of one, capitalism must be so proud of itself.

By scientists and engineers, rather than held back by the greed of financial capital. FFS, we've had MagLev trains for thirty years and hardly a sprawl has been made, yet it would dramatically reduce transportation costs and replace fleets of truckers and mountains of diesel consumption.

It is your view then, that advanced cost-saving technologies are being suppressed as part of a vast conspiracy?


"Never assume for malice what can easily be explained by stupidity"

The cause is you, it's austrians and austerians and libertarians of all stripes bitching and moaning about debt w/ out understanding what sovereign currency is, who demand everyone believes the market is always right even when it's not. I already explained the cause, it's economy of scale- low scale means the cost of producing a line of MagLev rail is high, so there's less demand; less demand means there's less profit, meaning they can't increase their economy of scale. Only the government can increase the scale of production, as it's the only one who can provide enough capital to bring down the cost of production.
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By Eran
#14275992
The possibilities for obtaining limited items, not produced by the technocracy, would be somewhere between gift economy and mutual credit; all it would take to obtain a fur coat is to know someone who enjoys making fur. If you intend to drink, you might want to befriend the guy who's known for an exceptionally good home brew or distillery.

That sounds very much like a step back in terms of efficient production.

How would you prevent, or, if not taking active steps to prevent it, why wouldn't you expect a capitalist economy to re-emerge? The guy who makes fur coats and also happens to like to drink isn't necessarily going to wait until he has a friend who both likes fur and runs a micro-brewery.

Instead, he will productionise his enterprise so as to make many fur coats efficiently. Acquire machinery, recruit employees, publish the availability of his furs, etc.

You don't seem to be grasping this- there is no money.

Money will emerge spontaneously, as it had on countless occasions in the past. Prisoner of war camps didn't have money, so cigarettes played the role. In every economy, one can find a commodity (actual or virtual) which is relatively-widely-desired. In some cases, it can serve as money directly (gold, cigarettes). In other cases, "warehouse receipts" for that commodity can serve as a more convenient alternative (tobacco in some of the early colonies).

What does a business do, fire them and replace them?

Yes. In time, irresponsible people are weeded out. In addition, business pays up for unpleasant, highly-skilled, dangerous or otherwise unattractive jobs. That way, virtually every position can be filled if it is sufficiently in demand.

Take away wages, and you'll see many people volunteering to play with puppies, many fewer volunteering to exterminate termites.

People don't want to "talk to a machine" (I prefer it, tbh), but it doesn't mean call centers couldn't and shouldn't be automated.

So even though people are willing to pay more for the privilege of talking to a live person, you will deny them (and corporate runners of call centres) the right to set up such centres because your opinions are somehow superior?

Throughout you writing and, presumably in a much greater dose, in your technocracy, I detect the desire to substitute the judgement of the elite to that of individuals in their capacity as either consumers or workers. Is that fair?

It doesn't mean self-driving forklifts couldn't increase productivity

And the reason we don't have self-driving forklifts is that despite their potential to increase productivity, the private sector cannot afford to develop them?

That's a non-sequitor; I could give two shits about the variety if healthy food is increasingly unaffordable. Congrats, you've produced three ways to kill people with diabetes and nutrient-deficiencies instead of one, capitalism must be so proud of itself.

Actually, I gave the examples of chopped onions and ready-mixed salads, developments that tend to encourage people to consume healthier food.

And again, you are intent on substituting your judgement and preference to that of consumers. You might not value variety, but other people obviously do.

The cause is you, it's austrians and austerians and libertarians of all stripes bitching and moaning about debt w/ out understanding what sovereign currency is, who demand everyone believes the market is always right even when it's not. I already explained the cause, it's economy of scale- low scale means the cost of producing a line of MagLev rail is high, so there's less demand; less demand means there's less profit, meaning they can't increase their economy of scale. Only the government can increase the scale of production, as it's the only one who can provide enough capital to bring down the cost of production.

Not every government is the size of the US. Some private sector conglomerates have as much access to investment capital as medium (not to mention small) governments, and with it the ability to fund and create economies of scale.

Intel, for example, sells chips to the entire world. It lacks nothing in scale, and neither do the major auto-makers.

The huge efficiency advantage of the market (which isn't always right, but is right more often than any other decision-making system) is that it is intrinsically geared towards only engaging in profitable projects, that is projects for which the value of the outputs is greater than the value of the inputs - value-creating projects.

Government, on the other hand, isn't subject to any such constraint. Consequently, government is just as likely to build "bridges to nowhere" and engage in other projects which, whether knowingly or out of ignorance, are actually value-destroying.
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By AFAIK
#14276011
-Trains-
When the metropolitan line was built in London the rail company purchased the farmland alongside the tracks, built housing and sold them at a profit.
When the British govt. completes Crossrail the increase value of land and property will benefit those already living near the stations.

Externalities, both positive and negative, are rarely represented accurately.

-Lack of money-
What sort of feedback mechanisms will exist in place of a market?
What's to prevent bartering from developing into commerce once a popular medium of exchange develops?
People exchanged jewelry for food during Pol Pot's rule despite his efforts to destroy markets and commerce. (Just an example of a scarce commodity being traded.)

Eran wrote:And again, you are intent on substituting your judgement and preference to that of consumers. You might not value variety, but other people obviously do.


More accurately different people want different things. Supermarkets currently stock hundreds of varieties of the same product because different customers have different preferences.

Would a technocrat be motivated and capable of satisfying niches?
Would such desires develop without commercial propaganda (advertising) and the manufacture of wants (marketing)?

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