[LeftyCatholic03]

Hey. I've been reading a little on technocracy and it seems very interesting. But is it a more liberal or conservative type of government? Are civil rights freely expressed in a technocracy? Or is it more like a USA society where you could have different political ideals mingling around? Is the party in control of the State and government which tends to happen in Communism or mainly the economy and the society?

Thanks

[/lies]

[Siberian Fox]

In so far as I am aware, there is no more politics as we know it in a technocracy.

Is the party in control of the State and government which tends to happen in Communism or mainly the economy and the society?

I beleive that there is no "party" and there is no "government" to speak of. More like an 'automatic' bureaucracy. But I'm no expert on the matter.

[Siberian Fox]

Fox, when'd you change your avatar?

After watching Die Hard again last night. 'Hans Gruber' is just the kind of baddie that I like in a film. Everything is meticulously planned, but you just can't get the henchmen to get the job done

I just had another thought about this now that LeftyCatholic03 has brougt it up...

In order to ensure that 'automatic' prevention of crime and other problems, wouldn't a Technocracy have to become a 'Big Brother' state? Not necessarily cameras everywhere, but with something like in Minority Report whereby people are IDed everywhere they go?

[Siberian Fox]

I completely follow your arguments on the lack of crime on a Technate, but that in itself is only half of the issue I was refering to...

WRT:

The first one I will mention is the non-transferability of energy-credits as opposed to money. By using a device similar to today's debit cards, no one could beat you up and steal your money. Even the weak PIN security system, which still works far better than money does, could be supplanted by some sort of quick and easy biometric security, such as finger or voice prints. Not flawless, true, but still prevents 99.9+% of potential cases.

Since you've not seen Minority Report, the system used in the film is one of retenal scanning, but the technology is advanced enough the the scanners can be placed up on walls and can read people's eyes from many metres away. This relates to the energy credits...

For example, if one were to use a public vehicle for transport, then the car would have a scanner in it, and would read a persons iris automatically so that the user does not have to do anything for the credits to be charged to them. But for these "biometric security" systems to work requires a database. That in intself is the "Big Brother" thing I was talking about. The automatic systems of the technate cannot work without the 'state' knowing everything about a person - which is then open to abuse by those who are administering the system. I don't like Joe Blogs so I'm going to "delete" him or whatever.

You see where I'm coming from? That's the kind of thing that a lot of people will find very hard to accept, because it means trusting ones entire existance to a machine system.

And while I remember, I have just though of another point. Consider this possibility...

That technocracy is not in fact a removal of scarity by elimination of the price system, but is in fact a deferal of scarcity to a different point in the productive process. Machines make everything, but machines require enerrgy to run, and energy is a scarce resource. Therefore people need credits as a way of "rationing" energy. So, in that regard not much has changed and there is still some basis for conflict.

All the above considered, I'm not saying that technocracy can't work - indeed I rather like the idea. Just that like all systems, it does have certain 'issues'.

[A_Technocrat]

That technocracy is not in fact a removal of scarity by elimination of the price system, but is in fact a deferal of scarcity to a different point in the productive process. Machines make everything, but machines require enerrgy to run, and energy is a scarce resource. Therefore people need credits as a way of "rationing" energy. So, in that regard not much has changed and there is still some basis for conflict.

All the above considered, I'm not saying that technocracy can't work - indeed I rather like the idea. Just that like all systems, it does have certain 'issues'.

Well yes, even under Technocracy energy and resources are still finite. But the rations proposed under Technocracy are so large that the person would have to be an absolute hog to consume it all. Note, people like that will die quickly in a natural way. Also, if you thought about it, you'd find tons of waste energy that Technocracy would free up.

An example of this is large electrical motors. Under the price system the only thing that is considered is the bottom line (have to save money at all costs). Therefore, when new electrical motors are installed always the cheapest motor, and not the most efficient, is installed. Therefore, energy is wasted on a lower quality design just because some small minded manger wanted to save a few dollars *now*. Ironically, most motors run long enough that even motors that are a few more percent efficient end up paying for themselves and saving money. So, the price system wastes energy and money in the long run.

Just looking at this one specific case (there are many more), if you add up all the thousands of buildings that are wasting a few watts that they shouldn't. The energy savings could run into the megawatts. Now that's abundance that requires minimal resources.

I'd doubt that you'd find a Technocrat that will say technocracy is a perfect system. There will be issues that have to be worked out when and if the system is put into practice. But Technocracy is a superior system due to these two points:

1. Technocracy is based off the same scientific principles that gave us this wonderful technology.

2. Technocracy was developed on updated ideas as opposed to the price system's 3000 year old obsolete ideas.

Upgrade to Technocracy today!!!

P.S. - I'll let Kolzene answer the rest of the post since he'll give a better answer on those topics. I just wanted to throw in a good example that Kolzene may or may not have seen before.

[Siberian Fox]

Thank you both for your explanations - as ever a very interesting read. I'm not sure that I agree with your definition of scarce, but I think that might be a whole new thread to debate upon some other time

[Adrien]

Sorry if this post doesn't make the thread advance but..

Kolzene, do you know a place where i can read good things like yours about Technocracy in french? Because the subject is very interesting but i can't manage to read such amounts of english without getting confused!

[Adrien]

Well it's not really that i don't manage to understand one point or another, it's even more annoying than that: it's the whole which gets confused in my head..

Bah, i'll keep on trying!

And thanks for your help!

[A_Technocrat]

Well it's not really that i don't manage to understand one point or another, it's even more annoying than that: it's the whole which gets confused in my head..

Then it's probably not a language barrier. Many native English speakers have problems understanding Technocracy as a whole. It's just a very different way of thinking and is hard for people that are used to the price system all their lives to grasp. So yes, just keep reading and thinking about it. It may take a year or two (or sooner with Kolzene's help), but you'll get it.

And it's worth it.

[Adrien]

Well the complexity of the topic doesn't help me that's for sure, but i do think that the language problem plays a part in that confusion, as it also occurs on other topics of the forum.

Well, this is the first forum in english that i participate in, so maybe i just need to get used to it, to get some "training".

[Omnist Priest]

I am delighted to see the avatar.

Vito Cornelius was an Omnist Priest

And what of the "Fifith Element" seems like capitalism was
doing fine in 2263?

Does anyone ever speak of "THX 1138?"

[DeaExMachina]

There are two major stumbling blocks generated by human nature that would be Technocracy's biggest problems.

1: Greed. Not for money necessarily, but for power and things. Just because someone has everything they need doesn't mean they don't want more than their share. Some, dispite all, will resort to crime to get more. To counter this you would need to strongly warn children from early childhood against the evil of greed. The 20th. century could provide a sufficient supply of graffic pictures of the results of greed. War after all is a product of greed.

2: The opposite of greed. "I have everything I need so why not sit and watch TV all my life?" At the end of the day, someone has to fix machines that break. Learning to fix machines and learning to make better machines requires a motive. Regretably the most reliable human motive has proven to be Greed. One of comunisms biggest downfalls was that people couldn't profit from extra work, thus everyone did the minimum. With everyone doing the minimum, the economy degenerated. Someone who does the minimum would get a salary of say X. While the people who go the extra mile and fullfill the most important professions in a Technocracy; technicians, engineers, teachers; would recieve a salary of say 10X. A wage gap factor of 10 may seem like a lot, unless you look at what the actual wage gap is in most countries.

Balancing these two opposite and equally destructive forces of human nature would be the most challenging element of a Technocracy. The technology would be the easy part.