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User avatar
By Godstud
#14488359
I said the 'degradation of the competition format'.
MMA is a competition SPORT. Boxing is a sport. Judo is a sport.
Regardless of what you think, there is no "degradation in the format".
User avatar
By Crantag
#14488371
Godstud wrote: MMA is a competition SPORT. Boxing is a sport. Judo is a sport.
Regardless of what you think, there is no "degradation in the format".


Boxing and judo are sports. MMA is more like sports entertainment.

The 'unified rules' are absolutely dreadful.

The 10-point must system has absolutely no place in 3-round MMA fights.

There are all kinds of stupid things, like the 'no knees to a grounded opponent', which is gamed to no end.

The judging criteria is transplanted from boxing, with a few minor modifications. It is fine for boxing. It is dreadful for MMA.

Also, there was no need for you to use quotes. For one, that isn't even a quote of anything I said. You could've just quoted 'degradation' if you wanted to be logical.

Unified-rules MMA is difficult to watch. That's why I suggested people check out OneFC. That was the only real purpose of my original post.
User avatar
By Godstud
#14488389
The rules are there specifically to prevent serious injury to competitors. If you can't realize THAT, then why are you even posting in an MMA thread?

The judging has some similarities to boxing, but it stops at successful hits. You sure don't know a lick about MMA.

OneFC ... I've seen some fights and they don't impress me.
I see how they judge it... near submissions, near knockouts, aggression... there are a lot of "vague" point values and you say UFC judging might be sucky?
User avatar
By Crantag
#14488401
Godstud wrote:The rules are there specifically to prevent serious injury to competitors. If you can't realize THAT, then why are you even posting in an MMA thread?

The judging has some similarities to boxing, but it stops at successful hits. You sure don't know a lick about MMA.

OneFC ... I've seen some fights and they don't impress me.
I see how they judge it... near submissions, near knockouts, aggression... there are a lot of "vague" point values and you say UFC judging might be sucky?


I'm guessing I have followed MMA for a lot longer and know it a lot better than you do.

The rules don't have that much to do with safety.

The reason that the unified rules were adopted was to get MMA sanctioned by the state boxing commissions, which had banned MMA. That is why they adopted what are essentially boxing criteria.

You can read the unified rules of boxing and compare them to the unified rules for MMA. The similarities are very apparent. The judging system is essentially exactly the same.

In boxing, the 10-point must system works fine. It is essentially a system devised for judging 10-round boxing fights. So, winner of the round getting one point is fine. Knockdowns count as an extra point. A point deduction is an effective punitive act, which does not dramatically change the fight.

For MMA, none of the merits of the 10-point must system apply. It is absolutely inadequate for judging 3-round MMA fights.

And the OneFC judging criteria is essentially the same judging system which was used in PrideFC, and which has been used in many organizations around the world. It is much more appealing to judge 3-round MMA fights as a whole, than to use the 10-point must system.

The rules in OneFC are also much more appealing. None of the bullshit of not being able to knee an opponent because he has one finger on the canvas, or because he is purposefully on his knees.
User avatar
By Godstud
#14488408
Crantag wrote:I'm guessing I have followed MMA for a lot longer and know it a lot better than you do.
I've followed it since Gracie and before Dana White ran the UFC. I'd guess you'd be wrong assuming I am not familiar with MMA.

Crantag wrote:The rules don't have that much to do with safety.

Strikes to the back of the head- illegal because they are DANGEROUS.
No strikes to the throat. Again, to prevent serious injury.
No kicking a person in the head while they are on their knees... again, this prevents a serious injury.
Stopping a fight when the person cannot defend themselves properly - safety.
Doctor stoppages- safety.
Most of the rules, aside from such things as grabbing the cage, hair, or shorts of a competitor, have to do with safety.

Crantag wrote:The reason that the unified rules were adopted was to get MMA sanctioned by the state boxing commissions, which had banned MMA.
That is common knowledge. Also, it was banned because there were no safety rules. Without rules it was considered a blood sport more than an actual sport.

Crantag wrote:For MMA, none of the merits of the 10-point must system apply. It is absolutely inadequate for judging 3-round MMA fights.
And yet it works fine most of the time.

Crantag wrote:The rules in OneFC are also much more appealing. None of the bullshit of not being able to knee an opponent because he has one finger on the canvas, or because he is purposefully on his knees.
So they don't care about the safety or health of their fighters. I don't see how that is a boon to an organization. It might be more appealing to YOU, but it didn't impress me.
User avatar
By Crantag
#14488413
Godstud wrote:
Strikes to the back of the head- illegal because they are DANGEROUS.
No strikes to the throat. Again, to prevent serious injury.
No kicking a person in the head while they are on their knees... again, this prevents a serious injury.
Stopping a fight when the person cannot defend themselves properly - safety.
Doctor stoppages- safety.
Most of the rules, aside from such things as grabbing the cage, hair, or shorts of a competitor, have to do with safety.



Those rules are all pretty much universal, with the exception of the kicking/kneeing a grounded opponent, and have nothing to do with the 'unified rules'.

They are essentially all just common sense. I'm not talking about the unified rules in comparison to UFC 1. The sorts of rules like not striking the throat and not striking the back of the head were adopted long before the unified rules, and have nothing to do with what I've been talking about.
User avatar
By Crantag
#14488414
I guess that Zuffa encouraging their fighters to obtain doctor approval and get on TRT (prior to this becoming banned) is a sign of how much Zuffa cares about their fighters. I guess the pathetic pay that Zuffa offers while the owners are raking in money hand over fist is a sign of how much Zuffa cares about the fighters.
User avatar
By Kapanda
#14488440
You're still not going to able to get around the "sports entertainment" claim just because you don't agree with the rules.
#14488441
What an asshole comment. This incident could have happened just as easily with a male. Cauliflower ears is a problem with some fighters, male AND female, if they are fighters. It's simply an accident. It was stopped and she'll probably keep the ear, whereas if she'd kept fighting, she might have lost it.

This has nothing to do with a female's fitness to fight in the MMA, and I hope your stupid wish never comes to pass(I highly doubt it will). Women's MMA is entertaining, they are skilled, and it's professional.



males are designed for combat, males look good with scars (research proves scars are attractive to females), a woman getting disfigured is disgusting. A women getting her ear ripped off is stuff that will turn off alot of potential fans. Suporting women mma is death to the sport.
User avatar
By Crantag
#14488445
Kapanda wrote:You're still not going to able to get around the "sports entertainment" claim just because you don't agree with the rules.


That's my characterization. Live with it.

Compared to say boxing, MMA (UFC) often seems to resemble pro wrestling to me more than actual sport.

I use to watch MMA pretty religiously, but it has pretty well declined in my eyes, though the UFC in particular.

The reason I call it sports entertainment though is because it is hard for me to consider something a sport, which is completely controlled by adversarial promoters. The UFC's moves to dominate MMA, dictate the careers of fighters, and systematically exclude from conversation any fighters not under an exclusive contract with them all contribute to my perception of the non-sport nature of MMA.

There is hope though that the UFC will continue to slip. For now, I'm just happy there are alternatives such as OneFC, M-1, Deep, KSW, etc.
User avatar
By Godstud
#14488659
oxymoron wrote:A women getting her ear ripped off is stuff that will turn off alot of potential fans.
It'll only get rid of the idiot fans, so it's no real loss.

oxymoron wrote:Suporting women mma is death to the sport.
Not supporting it is just simply misogyny. You also know fuck all about MMA if you say that women's MMA isn't good. They are skilled, and tough competitors.

Crantag wrote:Compared to say boxing, MMA (UFC) often seems to resemble pro wrestling to me more than actual sport.
Your knowledge of MMA/and the UFC, is sorely lacking. I doubt you know much of anything about MMA if you are making such an idiotic statement.

Crantag wrote:The UFC's moves to dominate MMA, dictate the careers of fighters, and systematically exclude from conversation any fighters not under an exclusive contract with them all contribute to my perception of the non-sport nature of MMA.
I am sure you'd prefer it being run by a number of corrupt Don King types, instead. That is what Dana White wanted to avoid, when he made the UFC. There is nothing different from this, than a football player playing in the NFL, or a hockey player in the NHL.

Crantag wrote:I'm just happy there are alternatives such as OneFC, M-1, Deep, KSW, etc.
Stick with your amateurish, and unskillful fighters there, if you wish, but don't whine because you don't like evenly skilled competitors fighting. UFC is the pinnacle of MMA skilled professionals, in the world. This has been proven time and time again.
User avatar
By Crantag
#14488704
My knowledge of MMA is not what's in question here. That is purely an ad hominem on your part.

The UFC has increasingly become a striking spectacle. A great number of fighters have very amateurish striking. So, there's that.

It isn't really true that the skill level has continually improved in MMA. Indeed, the Pride era was pretty much the pinnacle in terms of skilled fighters competing. The likes of Mirko Crocop, Mauricio Rua, Kazushi Sakuraba, Wanderlei Silva, Fedor Emelianenko, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Mark Coleman, etc., all in their prime, was a presentation of skill which is not matched today. Former college wrestlers attempting to kickbox, under unified MMA rules, is not a presentation of equal skill. There are some exceptions, but for the most part, the level of technical skill on display is not what it could be.

It is also a myth that all of the best fighters are under UFC contract. In a truly open sporting format, where being under exclusive dirty contracts with Zuffa is not a precondition to compete against particular fighters, things would be rather different. It is true that Zuffa has many of the best fighters locked down, but not all of them. Also, combat sports are different from sports like NFL. UFC to NFL is a false comparison which is thrown around. In boxing, the top contenders typically challenge the champions, regardless of promoters. Rankings and titles are outside of the purview of the promoters. In MMA, and particularly under the UFC model, the promoter seeks to monopolize everything, from news media, to rankings, to titles, down to the very careers of the fighters who are affiliated with them. It is a poisonous model, which also makes possible the severe underpaying of fighters.

And the UFC is owned by Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta. They are Las Vegas casino moguls, who are members of a mafia family. They also have a history of abusive labor practices in their casinos, and have been in a long and ongoing struggle with the Culinary Union.

The purchase of the UFC by Lorenzo Fertitta occurred under very dirty circumstances. The former owner, Bob Meyrowitz, was attempting to get the UFC sanctioned by the Nevada State Athletic Commission. Lorenzo Fertitta was a board member on the NSAC. Meyrowitz had successfully come up with a rule set that was in accordance with the NSAC demands, and had received the assurance that he would be sanctioned. Then, one member of NSAC changed his vote to oppose sanctioning. That one member was Lorenzo Fertitta. Lorenzo Fertitta then immediately sent an offer to purchase the UFC to Meyrowitz, which Meyrowitz accepted, his hands being essentially tied.
#14488748
I completely agree with Crantag when it comes to the Fertitta/Zuffa business practices and the shady organized crime aspect of it all. But I think it's a bit ironic for you to leverage that kind of criticism after putting PRIDE on a pedestal. I mean, PRIDE had deep connections with the Yakuza and there were a shit ton of fights that were fixed.

Also...

The UFC has increasingly become a striking spectacle.


2006 called, and is asking for it's criticism back.

Not to mention the whole "PRIDE era" argument has been played out for years, as well.
Last edited by Solastalgia on 19 Nov 2014 06:42, edited 1 time in total.
#14488750
Crantag wrote:Boxing and judo are sports. MMA is more like sports entertainment.


Using the term "sports entertainment" implies that the match results are predetermined, as the term "sports entertainment" was first used by the WWF to describe its own version of "sport."

If we had to pick a promotion that most resembled WWF style "sports entertainment", it would probably be PRIDE. Not just with predetermined results for fights (especially in their early years), but also with the crazy over-the-top WWF style entrances, fireworks, victory confetti, etc...

[youtube]R-wCXgS_dYE[/youtube]
Last edited by Solastalgia on 19 Nov 2014 06:44, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Godstud
#14488755
A lot of the great fighters have come to the UFC, and a good many of them have been found wanting i.e. Wanderlei Silva, Mirco Crocop, etc. Good, but not good enough for the UFC.

The good ones like Anderson Silva, Carlos Condit, Anthony Pettis, and others, have found a place in the UFC, because their skills were sufficient to be competitive.

Are you going to say that the likes of Fabricio Werdun, T.J. Dillishaw, Jose Aldo, Jon Jones, Rhonda Rousey, and Demitrius Johnson are lacking in champion prowess? I'm sorry. You saying you know MMA and then saying the things you do about the lack of competition, is absurd.

K-1 and Pride were closer to sports entertainment than the UFC, WEC, Strikeforce, etc.
Last edited by Godstud on 19 Nov 2014 06:09, edited 1 time in total.
#14488756
Crantag wrote:It isn't really true that the skill level has continually improved in MMA. Indeed, the Pride era was pretty much the pinnacle in terms of skilled fighters competing. The likes of Mirko Crocop, Mauricio Rua, Kazushi Sakuraba, Wanderlei Silva, Fedor Emelianenko, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, Mark Coleman, etc., all in their prime, was a presentation of skill which is not matched today. Former college wrestlers attempting to kickbox, under unified MMA rules, is not a presentation of equal skill. There are some exceptions, but for the most part, the level of technical skill on display is not what it could be.


The irony here is hilarious.

The UFC may have a bunch of former college wrestlers. But maybe you forgot that PRIDE was created to showcase a pro wrestler turned MMA fighter (Nobuhiko Takada). Who was pretty terrible at MMA, aside from his "wins" that he admitted himself were all fixed in his autobiography. The most famous one over Mark Coleman...

[youtube]XoWVI1XY8qo[/youtube]

I also don't really get the criticism of former college wrestlers turned MMA fighters. Wrestling is arguably the best base to have, even over striking in MMA, because wrestling can really determine the direction of a fight. It's also pretty much common knowledge that it's easier to get a wrestler striking, than it is to get a striker wrestling. This is MMA, after all. Not kickboxing. Which is why I'm guessing you're more of a fan of PRIDE/ONE FC with their stand up slanted rules (which was also hilariously ironic to read you criticize the UFC as a "stand up spectacle", when most of the UFC boos today now come from fighters being on the ground for too long, when they would have been stood up by PRIDE or ONE FC easily).

If you're looking for top level skilled kick boxing (as you seem to suggest with that wrestler kickboxing skill comment), then just watch a kickboxing match for fucks sake. There's no need to expect that from MMA, where the focus is split between multiple combat sports.
User avatar
By Crantag
#14488762
You can nitpick all day long. I never said that Pride was perfect or that the flaws of the UFC are exclusive to it.

I raised Pride in reference to the level of technical skill and the superior rule set and format.

The UFC is garbage. I find it barely watchable.

The commentators screaming in your face doesn't help in that respect, of course.

I'm happy that OneFC is continuing its healthy growth. Not long ago they announced a big deal in China. M-1 is also putting on a big show in Beijing next week, headlined by Dennis Smoldarev vs Marcin Tybura and Sergei Kharitonov vs Kenny Garner.

So you guys can have your UFC. I'll keep watching boxing, kickboxing, and global MMA orgs.

Image
User avatar
By Godstud
#14488771
OK, now get the hell out of our MMA thread, since you aren't really interested in MMA, just nitpicking.
User avatar
By Godstud
#14488782
MMA =/= OneFC then, either. You really do have silly ideas.
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