China a fascist state? - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#15138124
Fasces wrote:Not in my experience, at least, not significantly moreso than the subsection of Americans that define American as 'white, and christian, and vote GOP'.

Well, they made propaganda that entailed an enemy trying to destroy their "race" and embraced that kind of rehtoric. Your "experience" doesn't override that. They're becoming very nationalistic, tying that with their race, and engaging in their own form of colonization in a very aggressive manner.
#15138127
They made a series of action film where white folks are the bad guys. There's hundreds of Hollywood film counter-examples stretching back decades. :hmm:

You're reaching. The crux of that video seems to be "they're making movies like Red Dawn or 24!" And you seem to be disregarding his point about our own media habits (for which he is using the Wolf Warrior series as evidence for how transparent propaganda is to outsiders) to just say "Isn't China awful" when the question he wanted you to ask was "Is our media any better?"

Is China really fascist because they have their own version of Michael Bay somewhere?
#15138129
Fasces wrote:I don't think the bourgeoisie, at least in the Marxist sense of the word, are part of the Politburo

It seems to be the case that Xi had to take back some control lost to the bourgeoisie by clamping down on corruption and emphasizing the Maoist roots, but their relationship is still rather symbiotic basically.
#15138130
The rhetoric of those movies were pretty extreme so I'm not reaching, and old western movies that couldn't even be made today doesn't magically make this not concerning. It's a whataboutist argument, but judging by your signature, I'm sure you make a lot of those for Stalin and Mao.

Edit: I said it wasn't fascist but had some fascist and ethnonationalist elements. A big difference. Hell, that movie was pretty extreme even for propaganda to be honest.

I don't think China can be currently called fascist, though there are similarities.
By Sivad
#15138136
Fasces wrote:My analysis is based on the definition provided by Roger Griffen, recognized as one of the world's leading experts on fascism as a revolutionary ideology. Yours is based on wanting to tarnish reputation with a political slur.



Your definition is based on bullshit academic mincing, your definition is a distinction with no practical difference. My definition is based on rubber meets road reality.
User avatar
By Godstud
#15138160
@Random American Do you remember Red Dawn or even Invasion USA? There is more flag-waving in American films than in a great many things, and I am sure most Americans can overlook this, but the rest of us see it for what it is.

Heck, watch a UFC event some time where you have an American fighting ANYONE from a different country. The chants of "USA USA USA", are hard to miss.

Random American wrote: I said it wasn't fascist but had some fascist and ethnonationalist elements.
Yes, as does the USA.

China is authoritarian, but no more fascist, than the USA is.
#15138203
Godstud wrote:[usermention=78527]

China is authoritarian, but no more fascist, than the USA is.


Your worship of China and hate of America is always the hallmark of your posts. Are you Asian?
#15138212
Julian658 wrote:Your worship of China and hate of America is always the hallmark of your posts. Are you Asian?

I get why people engage in that type of thinking, but it's not a good line to go on. America having lots of problems doesn't magically give China license to do whatever it wants without criticism. The world is not a dichotomy. The U.S not having noble intentions does not mean China does or vice versa.


Now, as far as fascism goes. I think China doesn't qualify as fascist but is further down the road than America for the simple fact is, at least censorship here in America isn't as bad as China. Yes, we produce things like propaganda, but I can call it as such on this forum. Sites that are a nuisance to China are blocked there, dissidents arrested more often, etc. The people there have less rights. That isn't to say rights don't get violated here in America, as they absolutely do, but China has further deficits in areas such as the rule of law and press freedoms. Of course, the U.S. government is not a bunch of noble freedom fighters, but that's beside the point.

I think I have criticized elements of my government more often than I have China. I'm not in an anti-CCP phase, and I spend more time arguing against Trumpians and "free marketers."
User avatar
By Godstud
#15138215
Julian658 wrote:Your worship of China and hate of America is always the hallmark of your posts. Are you Asian?
I don't worship China. I am merely stating a fact. I am sorry I hurt your pathetic snowflake feelings.

China isn't fascist. I never said it wasn't totalitarian or authoritarian, so pay attention, and try not to be such a whiny American. I wasn't insulting America. I was making a point.

I said: "China is no more fascist than the USA.". That doesn't mean I was calling USA fascist, but I guess if you are an overly defensive wuss, you might think that.

Are you trying to spread your racist rhetoric again, by inferring I am "Asian" because I am not automatically anti-China? If so, fuck off, you racist prick.
#15138220
Godstud wrote:I don't worship China. I am merely stating a fact. I am sorry I hurt your pathetic snowflake feelings.

China isn't fascist. I never said it wasn't totalitarian or authoritarian, so pay attention, and try not to be such a whiny American. I wasn't insulting America. I was making a point.

I said: "China is no more fascist than the USA.". That doesn't mean I was calling USA fascist, but I guess if you are an overly defensive wuss, you might think that.

Are you trying to spread your racist rhetoric again, by inferring I am "Asian" because I am not automatically anti-China? If so, fuck off, you racist prick.

I regret not paying attention to the last part of that post with the stupid "Asian" comment to be honest. :knife: It is true that our conservatives do tend to be unable to separate criticism of the CCP and Chinese people as a whole. I used to think that claims of Sinophobia were just CCP propaganda, but there is truth to it. Not to say that anyone who criticizes China is a racist (I'm not anti-Asian and I hate the CCP but not the people living under it), but I think we do have such a problem growing. Sasha Baron Cohen got conservatives to cheer at a song about nuking Chinese people. Yes, people, not just talking about hating the state or government.

I hope I don't come off as condoning that, as I don't.
#15138231
Random American wrote:I regret not paying attention to the last part of that post with the stupid "Asian" comment to be honest. :knife: It is true that our conservatives do tend to be unable to separate criticism of the CCP and Chinese people as a whole. I used to think that claims of Sinophobia were just CCP propaganda, but there is truth to it. Not to say that anyone who criticizes China is a racist (I'm not anti-Asian and I hate the CCP but not the people living under it), but I think we do have such a problem growing. Sasha Baron Cohen got conservatives to cheer at a song about nuking Chinese people. Yes, people, not just talking about hating the state or government.

I hope I don't come off as condoning that, as I don't.

Sasha Cohen found stupid right wing people and made fun of them. For every stupid right winger there is an equally stupid left winger. And the problem with the left is that they think they are full of virtue.

It is perfectly OK to ask if someone is Asian unless you are a PC fanatic (a good example of left wing stupidity).

The USA is highly imperfect. Heck the West is imperfect. However, Western values and capitalism is the best we have. let me know when something better comes along.
Last edited by Julian658 on 20 Nov 2020 15:04, edited 1 time in total.
#15138232
Julian658 wrote:It is perfectly OK to ask if someone is Asian unless you are a PC fanatic.

I'm not PC, but regardless, it is a strange question to ask. Japan has problems with China and they're Asian. There are white western tankies that kiss China's ass, so I don't think it's tied to race.

Julian658 wrote:The USA is highly imperfect. Heck the West is imperfect. However, Western values and capitalism is the best we have. let me know when something better comes along.

I like western values too and I aggressively defend them, as for capitalism, yes, as long as it properly regulated. Ironically, companies outsource to China as they lack appropriate regulations to a greater extant than we do.
#15138236
Random American wrote:I'm not PC, but regardless, it is a strange question to ask. Japan has problems with China and they're Asian. There are white western tankies that kiss China's ass, so I don't think it's tied to race.


OK, that is a valid point.

I like western values too and I aggressively defend them, as for capitalism, yes, as long as it properly regulated. Ironically, companies outsource to China as they lack appropriate regulations to a greater extant than we do.


Capitalism needs a conscience. However, from a capitalistic point of view it is correct to outsource any "items" that are more expensive to produce at home. However, there is a cost to the locals who manufacture that item. This was the Trump message and that is why he got some Bernie Sander voters in 2016.
#15138238
Julian658 wrote:Capitalism needs a conscience. However, from a capitalistic point of view it is correct to outsource any "items" that are more expensive to produce at home. However, there is a cost to the locals who manufacture that item. This was the Trump message and that is why he got some Bernie Sander voters in 2016.

I'm for tariffs and implementing some was one of the few good things Trump has done, though I voted against him. I oppose neoliberalism and that's also part of the reason why I don't like the CCP either. They play that game with the corporate controlled western governments and sell out their population and ours as partners in crime. They also do shady things with people's information, but all that matters is profits on a spreadsheet when it comes to our businesses and our governments, and in addition, they suck up to the CCP's authoritarianism.
#15138254
Random American wrote:I'm for tariffs and implementing some was one of the few good things Trump has done, though I voted against him. I oppose neoliberalism and that's also part of the reason why I don't like the CCP either. They play that game with the corporate controlled western governments and sell out their population and ours as partners in crime. They also do shady things with people's information, but all that matters is profits on a spreadsheet when it comes to our businesses and our governments, and in addition, they suck up to the CCP's authoritarianism.

I agree, the next stage of capitalism should improve on that.

A great example of capitalism are the small "mom and pop" businesses with a few dozen employees. The owner works along side the employees and soon they become a family that sticks together for decades. The benefits and salaries tend to be top notch. Once a company becomes large and goes public the owner may be retired or dead and the system is then run by the numbers with little regard to the employees. Walmart pays minimum wage not because Mr. Walton is stingy but because Walmart is now a public company and now has to respond to the share holders.
#15138842
Aexodus wrote:One or both seen in other authoritarian ideologies, such as Communism and monarchism.

Monarchism was not always as authoritarian as many systems that later arose in the 20th Century.

At times monarchs could be very authoritarian and absolutist, but it was usually mainly about protecting and cementing their own power.

Probably smaller weaker monarchs couldn't afford to be as authoritarian, especially when they were in contest with other states.
Christianity (and to a lesser extent certain other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism) also had a tempering influence as well.
#15139036
I do have to give China credit on one thing, they are very pragmatic, and while I do not care for their government structure, I wouldn't condemn them for being incompetent. They certainly are a nation and government structure that will probably stand the test of time. I hate to say this, but good autocrats do tend to be very efficient, not that I would want to live under one.
User avatar
By ralfy
#15139061
More like a party-led dictatorship with export orientation and home to many billionaires, employing a system that later looked like the so-called "East Asian Miracle," and which initially led to something like 40 million dead and then later over 800 million lifted out of poverty.
#15139067
This is a city in China you've never heard of. It does not promote itself abroad, it has no history of doing as such. It simply developed rapidly from nothing to a world class highly livable 21st century mini-metropolis in under 20 years. Your eyes can be the judge.

#15139075
SaddamHuseinovic wrote:One Party state, benvolent Dictator, controlled economy (state-capitalism), orwellian surveillence and censorship, prisons for minorities, desire to create a superhuman, exchagerated territorial claims, millitarisation

China changed from Maoism in pure Musolini Fascism


Not really. It’s socialist, with a regulated capitalist economy. Yes, it is a one party police state, but the ‘prisons for minorities’ and ‘creating superhumans’ is a western add-on. Remember that this is a country of 1.5 billion and you couldn’t control a society with that many using a democracy.
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