[Far-Right Sage]

Perhaps a revival of the Roman religion as many influenced by Evola advocated would have been the best step forward for Italy then.

The likes of Jupiter and Mars could most definately be integrated into a more spiritual, blood and soil Fascism.

[Tribbles]

Even if you switch to another religion that might be more friendly toward eugenics, there is always the chance that biology and natural selection is too advanced to be controlled by Humans in our present state of knowledge and technology.

[starman2003]

Even if you switch to another religion that might be more friendly toward eugenics,

Who needs a religion a modern state should be based on a secular ideology. Nazi ideology was conducive to eugenics but a new power-oriented, progressive worldview will do i.e. it doesn't have to be racist.

there is always the chance that biology and natural selection is too advanced to be controlled by Humans

Anything controlled by humans wouldn't be natural selection.

in our present state of knowledge and technology.

Oh sure, we've more to learn about biology and genetic engineering. But heck, any fascist/wholist revival will probably take quite a few years anyway, so a new regime will reap the fruits of much better know-how.

[Tribbles]

Manifesto of the fascist struggle, 1919:

Italians! Here is the program of a genuinely Italian movement. It is revolutionary because it is anti-dogmatic, strongly innovative and against prejudice.

For the political problem: We demand:

a) Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women.

b) A minimum age for the voting electorate of 18 years; that for the office holders at 25 years.

c) The abolition of the Senate.

d) The convocation of a National Assembly for a three-years duration, for which its primary responsibility will be to form a constitution of the State.

e) The formation of a National Council of experts for labor, for industy, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made from the collective professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a General Commission with ministerial powers.

For the social problems: We demand:

a) The quick enactment of a law of the State that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers.

b) A minimum wage.

c) The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions.

d) To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants.

e) The rapid and complete systemization of the railways and of all the transport industries.

f) A necessary modification of the insurance laws to invalidate the minimum retirement age; we propose to lower it from 65 to 55 years of age.

For the military problem: We demand:

a) The institution of a national militia with a short period of service for training and exclusively defensive responsibilities.

b) The nationalization of all the arms and explosives factories.

c) A national policy intended to peacefully further the Italian national culture in the world.

For the financial problem: We demand:

a) A strong progressive tax on capital that will truly expropriate a portion of all wealth.

b) The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor.

c) The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

[starman2003]

) Universal suffrage polled on a regional basis, with proportional representation and voting and electoral office eligibility for women.

Nice propaganda position.

b) A minimum wage.

Wages were minimum alright.

A necessary modification of the insurance laws to invalidate the minimum retirement age; we propose to lower it from 65 to 55 years of age.

Pretty costly.

b) The nationalization of all the arms and explosives factories.

Propaganda position; didn't happen.

c) A national policy intended to peacefully further the Italian national culture in the world.

Yep like in ethiopia.

b) The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor.

Sounds great, but inevitably abandoned in that bastion of holy joes....

[Tribbles]

Oh, you are such a party-poop

Some of the things in that manifesto happened, others did not. Had Mussolini and the others stuck to that manifesto of 1919, he would have been more like Hugo Chavez, and I like the fully grown Mussolini better, up to the late 1930s at least.

Something a new fascist manifesto should consider is perhaps to have something about increased internet-control into it. I am very happy about the new development towards hands-on management on the internet, that now is taking place in Norway and Sweden.

In Cuba, they had a plan towards making a Cuban intra-net of sorts, that would fulfill the functions of the all-free and anarchistic internet, but with less chaos. I think that a healthy level of surveillance is good for the spirit, and the manners of the people.

The All-Cuban intranet-plan crashed - or so I have heard - but one must not let a setback or two throw you off the horse.

Edit: Aha, here we have it:
http://www.havana-guide.com/havana-internet.html

Well, its a start - something to build on. A good national intranet must off course also have the approved newspapers in it, government sites and sportclubs, a forum moderated by the party, a online dictionary, encyclopedia, banks and stuff to pay your bills - and perhaps a form of facebook-copy.

A bit off-track.

[starman2003]

Some of the things in that manifesto happened, others did not. Had Mussolini and the others stuck to that manifesto of 1919, he would have been more like Hugo Chavez, and I like the fully grown Mussolini better, up to the late 1930s at least.

The manifesto bore little resemblance to reality. It may be wishful thinking, but if Mussolini had focused more on internal revolution instead of say, the spanish civil war and ethiopia, he might've produced a true fascist spirit prior to the big war. I mean, if he had put the church in its place and gotten people to internalize fascist values instead, it might've made a considerable difference.

[Preston Cole]

Some of the things in that manifesto happened, others did not. Had Mussolini and the others stuck to that manifesto of 1919, he would have been more like Hugo Chavez, and I like the fully grown Mussolini better, up to the late 1930s at least.

Poor analogy. Hugo Chavez is not a nationalist and he's an anti-imperialist Christian-socialist.

Had the 1919 Futurist-inspired manifesto been stuck to, Italian Fascism would have more likely resembled some of the authoritarian state socialist regimes of the Middle East, particularly Iraqi Ba'athism. My two cents.

[Tribbles]

What I don't understand is this odd attack on the church.

Isn't it kind of cool with old churches, fancy artwork, traditionalism, spiritualism and men in funny costumes?

It would have been refreshing if some hardline-conservative-catholic-authoritarian came along and started a quarrel with FRS and Starman:

"Faith! Fatherland! Fascism! You must accept the blood of Jesus Christ!!"

- Or something like that. Being deeply religious must be kind of cool. To bad I my self am raised to be an atheist.

[Preston Cole]

What I don't understand is this odd attack on the church.

Many fascists here are of a republican and secular conviction, the progressive fascist branch. Indeed, some prewar and wartime fascists viewed the church with wary eyes or didn't want to involve religion too much into the state. The only major such movements I know of are the Nazis and the BUF, though being National Socialist, Hungary's Arrow Cross may have also held similar ideas. It's mostly the National Socialist and Futurist-Fascist groups that are anti-Church.

The Church is not a meritocratic institution (not in the fascist sense, at least), it's based on outdated concepts, and it doesn't necessarily swear complete allegiance to the Nation and nationalism. (I'm not much of a Christian believer myself as Deism strikes me as a far more acceptable belief than Christianity). Those are the primary quarrels fascists have with the Church, among others.

[starman2003]

What I don't understand is this odd attack on the church.

Or something like that. Being deeply religious must be kind of cool. To bad I my self am raised to be an atheist.

You should be grateful. I've always held that fascism is, at its core, totally at odds with christianity. As I've said so any times, fascism stands for great worldly ambition and will to power, not humility and belief in mythical otherworldliness. It is the veneration of the Great Man of the Real World, not some fanciful, imaginary "god."

[Tribbles]

These guys are now very cross at you!





But to take a more serious, or semi-serious argument: Perhaps the church could have a civilizing effect on dysfunctional atheists like for example, Breivik? Latest news is that he referred to himself as a "national-darwinist" in prison.

But since he wanted to use Christian symbols as some sort of anti-muslim token (Kind of like waving a cross in front of a bunch of vampires) some actual church-going and bible-studies could have done him some good.

[starman2003]

These guys are now very cross at you!

I'm absolutely mortified.

But to take a more serious, or semi-serious argument: Perhaps the church could have a civilizing effect on dysfunctional atheists like for example, Breivik? Latest news is that he referred to himself as a "national-darwinist" in prison.

There are screwballs in all movements, including christianity.

But since he wanted to use Christian symbols as some sort of anti-muslim token (Kind of like waving a cross in front of a bunch of vampires) some actual church-going and bible-studies could have done him some good.

It's best to write off the church. Look at the shortage of catholic priests. Almost nobody takes that stuff seriously enough anymore to be willing to accept the necessary sacrifices like celibacy. It would be a mistake to base a future movement on a dying relic of the past.

[Tribbles]

Well, yeah...

Celibacy is bad, but the uniforms and artwork is cool.

We could try to merge protestantism and Catholicism, maybe? And remove celibacy? Then we can have an All-European church that fits well with the EU. The twins that used to rule Poland wanted a Christian EU-constitution together with a brand new EU-army. They might have liked such an idea.

[starman2003]

Well, yeah...

Celibacy is bad, but the uniforms and artwork is cool.

Na, silly. Fascist uniforms are better. And much worse than celibacy is the basic orientation of christianity--directly opposed to fascism/wholism.

We could try to merge protestantism and Catholicism, maybe? And remove celibacy? Then we can have an All-European church..

Europe is pretty nonreligious compared to the US so forget it. Even in the US the holy bs is declining.

[Tribbles]

I do not want to replace uniforms used by branches of the fascist party with priest-robes.

But the church can join the parades if they want to. I saw a video of nuns and munks parading past Mussolini once, didnt find it on youtube.

[starman2003]

I do not want to replace uniforms used by branches of the fascist party with priest-robes.

At the rate those holy joes are dying out, there won't be many left anyway by the time fascism revives.

[CounterChaos]

I just dropped by to read the manifesto. I had a strange idea this last week or so that I had a few things in common with your ideology. After reading the manifesto though - I have discovered that the ones I have are few and far between.............

Anyway - I did not come here to knock anything down - just thought I would make that comment.........Cheers.......

Happy Holidays

[starman2003]

I just dropped by to read the manifesto. I had a strange idea this last week or so that I had a few things in common with your ideology.

Not surprising; there are some things I don't like about it.

After reading the manifesto though - I have discovered that the ones I have are few and far between.............

So I guess it's not all bad.

[CounterChaos]

1. Fascism will oppose the doctrines and fallacies of the capitalist and communist regimes, and unmask it to the world for all to see their shallow and destructive ways. Fascism will be on the front line in the struggle against capitalism, communism, and other forms of suppression.

OK, I agree

2. Since the forces of communism have actively killed over one hundred million people, while capitalism has killed zero, we will make it our priority, no, our duty to overcome this murderous threat, and the only way to overcome a violent movement is through the use of reactionary violence.

OK, I agree - as long as you understand the difference between communism and socialism......

3. Capitalism, on the other hand, is purely a political problem that leads to the dissolution of morals, on one hand, and bad policies on the other, and unlike communism the challenge of capitalism can be dealt with through the use of intellect and dialogue.

I disagree - a better solution would be a Resource Based Economy

4. Fascism will work to promote courage, pride, discipline, good values, and mental and physical strength among the people of the state. The struggle against the forces of capitalism and communism is also the struggle against ignorance, against physical and mental decay, and the struggle against poverty.

OK, I agree

5. All Fascists will strive to be the best both mentally and physically. A purely fascist military must require that all members be both physically and mentally fit and dedicated fascists.

I disagree - there are many functions in the military that a disabled person can perform.....

6. Fascism will instill youth groups to train young fascist citizens to be better than the generation that preceded them. These youth groups will not be compulsory or used as punishment, but they will, however, offer educational and financial benefits to the youth.

I disagree - individuality should be preserved. If fascism works, there is no need to indoctrinate.

7. Fascism will not be a movement of the people, but one for the people. We will work for those who are suppressed and downtrodden by silly ideas such as Jewish conspiracies, racism, and religious policies.

OK, I agree - embrace science - evolutionary perspective and atheism if done with benevolence.

8. Fascism will not bend to the will of the people on any of the above mentioned matters. For we will not fall into the dangerous trap of the individualistic system of democracy. True Fascism governs the people, the people do not govern Fascism.

I disagree - if it is the will of the people to be fascist - then the people are as one.

9. Fascism will keep religion and state separated. The Fascist party will be neutral in religious matters, and we will accept all religions, so long as they do not undermine the state.

I disagree - religion should be relegated to a dusty shelf in a book of history.

10. Fascism will rid of the individualistic system of democracy. Democracy is not, and can never be the fascist way, nor will democracy be in the true interest of the state and its people.

I disagree - if fascism would embrace a Resource Based Economy, the need for democratic participation would be limited by default. With only minor things falling under democratic idealism.

11. Fascism will create labor unions of every profession outside the iron-grip of socialist oppression. These unions will have no other duty than to uphold the workers rights and to guide the economic and social policies of the Fascist party that created them.

I disagree - if capitalism is abolished and a Resource Based Economy is embraced - this would never be needed.

12. Fascism will remain loyal to the doctrines of corporatism. Through corporatism the interest of the employees and the employers are fused together with the interest if the environment and the interest of the people as a whole.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

13. All interests are also the interest of the states, and these are best pursued through corporatism. The misconception that the interest of the workers and business life always collide is a communist lie and the misconception that these interests do not require regulation is a capitalist lie.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

14. Fascism will pursue wholist idea. This means all problems are potential problems of the state. The Fascist state ,under the guidance of its people, under the guidance of corporatism, and under the guidance of the fascist party, seeks to improve all aspects of life for its citizens.

OK, I agree - just leave the corporations out............

15. Fascism is too flexible to put artificial boundaries to the activity of the state, and it withdraws from an area of conflict if, and only if, things are running smoothly without it.

If fascism would embrace a Resource Based Economy and model it from the Venus Project, the military would be the fascist state - period.

16. Fascism will create an atmosphere of collectivism and solidarity. In a fascist state none will be too poor, none will be too rich.

OK, good - I agree.

17. The Fascist state will make it a priority to ensure all able citizens to have duties and responsibilities on one hand, and rights and social security on the other.

OK, good I agree.

18. Fascism will give universal health care to its citizens. Fascism will strive to keep its citizens as happy and as productive as possible. Seeing as happiness and productivity go hand in hand.

OK, good I agree.

19. Fascism will employ the ways of good government. The way of good government is a complex one, it requires knowledge, experience, and expertise. For this reason the government can not be left in the hands of the masses alone. Especially if those masses are corrupted by the materialist views of communism and capitalism. Fascism will combine the knowledge of the state with the knowledge of the people.

OK, good I agree.

20. Fascism will oppose the destructive forces of cultural diversity. For fascism in itself is a cultural identity of strength and vitality. For that reason we will work to change or abolish the bad habits of the cultures within its nation of influence while at the same time promote the admirable values of those cultures.

I disagree - if fascism works, then the bad habits will disappear on there own. If you give a person a tool (a working system), they will perform, comply and become a part of the whole.

21. Fascism will define itself by these guidelines. And with that being said all movements that call themselves fascist must first fit into these parameters.

So, how did I score?