Fascist Socialisation - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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By Rei Murasame
#13941916
All I am seeing is that Daktoria and R_G don't know what the definition of Fascism is. The idea that it's strictly about enforcing something with a truncheon, is nonsensical. I have a whole thread about actually how fascism comes about, in the (newly renamed) Corporatism subforum: [Link1]

I also took the same approach in a long description on the necessity for a European community, today: [Link2]

Also, I already said:
Rei Murasame in this thread wrote:It is not "Fascist feminism", it is Fascism that emerged in a society where feminism already was active.
I other words the title of this thread is misleading. I chose the word 'emerge' there on purpose.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 19 Apr 2012 02:27, edited 1 time in total.
#13941924
All I am seeing is that Daktoria and R_G don't know what the definition of Fascism is. The idea that it's strictly about enforcing something with a truncheon, is nonsensical. I have a whole thread about actually how fascism comes about, in the (newly renamed) Corporatism subforum: [Link1]

I also took the same approach in a long description on the necessity for a European community, today


What are doing up so late sweetie pie? ;)
User avatar
By Suska
#13941927
a condition of constraint in the production of our desire so radical that it perhaps even turns that desire against itself, foreclosing our hopes in a language we can neither escape nor wield on our own behalf.


I would characterize the attempt of women to shape men as quite natural on a personal basis and quite strange at a national level. Since when do strangers have so real a power in each others lives that they would pound out of them what nature demands and thousands of years of monasticism didn't effect in the slightest? These are sexual matters and they are highly connective.

Fascist feminism, in a certain light, is an oxymoron. It used to be that men constructed culture for their ladies - they seem to want a right to it now, as though sexual favors have been socialized to compensate.
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By Rei Murasame
#13941929
Well, I should also that it's not possible to look at this issue as though women are some tacked-on thing that is just added onto society like "oh, what are our policies toward women", no, that doesn't make any sense.

Women are not a tacked-on reflection of the base, women are actually a central part of the base. A 'women's issue' is simultaneously an issue of the relations of production and of the reproduction of those relations because women are the repositories of culture. Therefore any movement that is taking itself seriously - particularly in the post-1968 world - obviously is going to have to accept that reality.
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By Daktoria
#13941943
Rei Murasame wrote:All I am seeing is that Daktoria and R_G don't know what the definition of Fascism is. The idea that it's strictly about enforcing something with a truncheon, is nonsensical. I have a whole thread about actually how fascism comes about, in the (newly renamed) Corporatism subforum: [Link1]


Oh give it a break. Are you seriously telling me modern feminism doesn't wield consumerism and environmentalism as a national mythology?

Are you seriously telling me multiculturalism isn't a source of ethnic pride in itself? You see this among second wave (upper-middle class) feminists all the time who take pride in helping (working class) people up from down and out conditions.

Are you seriously telling me feminism doesn't take pride in conflict? You see this among third wave feminists who directly consider the value of conflict in progressing society. Even in the education system, you see negligence towards bullying, and support of militarism. These are the same people who advocate a breakdown of the family unit, support abortion, and increased social programs.

Feminism has fascism written all over it. It isn't just a matter of totalitarianism. It's a matter of indoctrination.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13941967
You are erecting strawmen again, and it's really tiring when people do that. It's like all subtlety is lost on you. Whenever you begin a sentence with "are you seriously telling me", I always tend to anticipate by now that it will be completely divergent from whatever it is that I just said.

Look at the society that we live in today. This situation did not pop into being, it did not appear just because someone decided to be eclectic and combine some stuff together. It emerged because of the way that this society developed and my first post in this topic makes that really easy to see.

The idea that there is some eclectic yet discrete "Fascist feminism", is as misleading as thinking about a discrete "Fascist homosexuality", in that to think of it this way, to think that someone sat down and actually thought, "Oh, let me try just randomly to combine...", is ridiculous and that is not how ideology is shaped.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 19 Apr 2012 03:07, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
By Demosthenes
#13941973
Oxymoron wrote:Major Rei in a thread means I dont read most of the content.


Corrected:

Major Rei in a thread means I'm incapable of comprehending most of the content


Ah... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Take that plasma lover!
User avatar
By Sephardi
#13941975
:hmm: Demo can I plz haz chance to post chauvinistic degrading comments. Just this once? I finished my homework and I did the bed. Come on! You never let me. :*(
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13941998
Image
Yes, it is possible that she could be a socialist. It's possible that 'socialism' is not an adjective.
In fact, I have an easy way to illustrate this for those who still might not get it. Since it's like I am going to have to highlight this same issue on the Left so that you all can see it. Given that we all agree that the character and organisation of a revolution determines to a great degree the sort of society that will exist after it is completed (see GDH Cole and SG Hobson on this), you should be able to understand why there is a difference between:

  • The Socialist Republic of Vietnam had an exceptional levelling of opportunities between women and men during its revolution.

  • The People's Republic of China in which the CCP confined its female party members to menial and maternal tasks.

Which one do you suppose was able to most effectively harness the talents of women, producing a social arrangement that observers could describe as 'more equal relations between the genders' and 'more empowerment of women'?

Obviously Vietnam.

Yet there are no threads on PoFo that try to make out like this is something bizarre that requires a completely different name at the top-level, right? Those are both socialist movements, just it so happens that Vietnam's socialism was better for women than China's was. "Oh, the strangest mix of tendencies I've ever seen!" Please.
#13942016
Dave wrote:It is this sort of view which leads to the destruction of society. Because women have sexual superiority over men, giving women legal and economic equality leads to overall social superiority. With power comes responsibility, and women are simply not equipped for this sort of responsibility. Worse, because women are attracted to power it leads to many men simply being considered unattractive and unsuitable, permanently. This causes a collapse in family formation, family stability, and birth rates.

This isn't even speculation, as all of this has already happened.


So you support feminism in 3rd world countries?

Rei Murasame wrote:The idea that it's strictly about enforcing something with a truncheon, is nonsensical. I have a whole thread about actually how fascism comes about, in the (newly renamed) Corporatism subforum
Maybe you need to pick a new name for your ideology. It doesn't actually resemble early 20th century fascism all that much, and has horrible connotations that pretty much destroy all its credibility. Third positionism is also a poor choice of name that will never catch on. Also, the words "far-right" and "center-right" are pretty meaningless, since you have more in common with "center-left" than "center-right".
By Demolitionman
#13942046
Rei Murasame wrote: On that note, you remember the thing where Muslim fundamentalists were posting anti-gay leaflets through people's front doors in UK towns, right? It's like "what the hell?"


This doesn't morally outrage me nor does it surprise me in the least given this is a commonly employed tactic by fundamentalist Christians. They continually bang their head on the wall about abortion and gays while neglecting to actually figure out the root causes of these issues.

Brother of Karl wrote:
So you support feminism in 3rd world countries?


That question has an obvious answer, BoK. Feminism should be aggressively promoted in the third world and developing nations to not only reduce their populations but also to weaken their social cohesion.

Exporting feminism is one of the smarter things we've done as it is a subtle subversion of their culture that is as devastating as any economic or military conflict yet without the unified front against the external aggressors.

Maybe you need to pick a new name for your ideology. It doesn't actually resemble early 20th century fascism all that much, and has horrible connotations that pretty much destroy all its credibility. Third positionism is also a poor choice of name that will never catch on. Also, the words "far-right" and "center-right" are pretty meaningless, since you have more in common with "center-left" than "center-right".


Indeed. Third position sounds stupid and fascism has far too much baggage. The left were smart to adopt "progressive" as their label as it gives young hipsters a warm fuzzy feeling about their world view.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13942057
The name cannot be changed, the term "Third Position" has already been established as its name in Europe. Furthermore, the fact that "it doesn't [totally] resemble 20th century fascism" is something that I shouldn't need to address, seeing as we are no longer in the 20th century and things changed.

I'm not sure why you all are acting like these things, such as the name of the ideological umbrella, are now being decided by us. No, this was consciously and deliberately decided in 1975, before I was born. The name and the various strands of thought under the 'New Fascism' umbrella, now properly known as the Third Position, are not of my generation's choosing, I was born in 1986.

I don't get to make that call 47 years after the fact. We can't just pick a new name for it, and even if we did, you'd figure out what it is pretty quickly anyway.

I'll address the other issues in my next post, I just wanted to get that out of the way first.
By Demolitionman
#13942200
Rei Murasame wrote:I don't get to make that call 47 years after the fact. We can't just pick a new name for it, and even if we did, you'd figure out what it is pretty quickly anyway.


People prefer easy to understand packages with appealing names rather than overly complicated (for the average person) ideological concepts with names that make them feel stupid for even asking. Ever heard politically active lefties refer to everything bad as fascist? Or how they hate capitalism but love communism and socialism? These are people that are more switched on than average and they don't even have a clue other than appeals to their own emotion. Even in this thread two people have according to you misunderstood what fascism is and one of them hangs out in the P & C forum (although his tendency to over think a lot of things).

It is good that the far right is trying present itself as an intellectual movement but don't forget who you're talking to when you ask them for power.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13942250
It's not like we are literally saying the word 'fascism' though.

Does "The Third Position", really sound all that complicated? Besides, if they are confused as to what it's about, then that is actually why they have to be told. Unlike liberal-capitalism, which needed only to set up a legal system and sprinkle its mores over the society, our ideas have always had the more uphill task of having to change the way of thinking of the persons involved in it and in getting them to actually build the labour power base.

Basically we cannot approach them in the same way that liberals do in present day politics - it is in fact because we see the need to explain to them how they are to be a part of what is happening rather than a mere observer, that we win them. As much as I dislike quoting this (because of the connotations - but really this applies to all revolutionary groups and not just Nazis), there is a quote from a book published in Nazi Germany where they were discussing the application of rule of law in the National Socialist state. What makes the book interesting in the context of this conversation that we are having now, is not the law itself, but how to cause people to support new ways of governing society. So I'll show you it. The book itself became the first shot fired in an 'war' over the form that the Nazi state would take:

'Der nationalsozialistische Rechtsstaat', page 40, Dr. Otto Koellreutter, 1938 (emphasis added) wrote:The horrendous experience with the First World War has in our generation replaced the individualistic mindset with that of the community experience, thus creating the necessary preconditions for the coming into existence of the rule of law of the National Socialist state. It is understandable that the Liberal state of the rule of law portrayed itself, based on its intellectual attitudes, as the constitutional state and as the state of the rule of law, just as liberal democracy has been immersed in the belief that it is the only possible political form of modern statehood in the world. What we are observing here is the claim to totality in the world of liberal ideas.

This claim to totality, regarding the shaping of our national and state life raises, of course, the issue of the National Socialist worldview. National Socialism does not strive, in a sense of the long overdue liberal thinking, for a "total state" in the sense of the totality of the state power structure; rather it strives for the totality of the National Socialist worldview in all spheres of life.

Therein lies its "illiberal" attitude. And therefore resistance is being put up here at home and abroad by circles which, for their part, strive to hold on to the totality of the liberal world of ideas. The construction of the National Socialist German state governed by the rule of law is the sign that the totality of the National Socialist worldview has [already] prevailed in the German people.

The reason I selected this quote is to highlight an agreement between Koellreutter and myself on this issue. The Third Position cannot actually be successful unless it can actually impact people's thinking. Trying to sell them just nice feelings that they want to feel on the front door step would only result in us fooling ourselves, since our worldview would not take hold in them, and then they'd just continue to uphold the liberal hegemony.

Hegemony comes from largely from below, and it is from below that we have to act first. Kylie Smith from IGJ explains in a way quite similar to the aforementioned Otto Koellreutter:
Kylie Smith, 'Gramsci at the margins: subjectivity and subalternity in a theory of hegemony', International Gramsci Journal No. 2 April 2010 (emphasis added) wrote:[Gramsci] argued that hegemony comes from below, originating in the thoughts, beliefs and actions of everyday people who may or may not see themselves as part of organised groups. Hence, Gramsci was intensely aware of the way hegemony operated at a personal level. Capitalist hegemony was not, is not, possible, without a complete identification at the level of the self.

[...]

The politico-historical criterion on which our own inquiries must be grounded is this: that a class is dominant in two ways, namely it is leading and dominant. It leads the allied classes, it dominates the opposing classes. Therefore, a class can (and must) lead even before assuming power; when it is in power it becomes dominant but it also continues to lead (Gramsci 1992: 136-137. Q1§44).

[...]

The major innovation that Gramsci makes to our understanding of civil society, which make it so important for a theory of hegemony, is the way in which he reconfigures the concept of the ‘superstructural’ (Texier 1979). Whereas Marx posited a base/structure conception, with civil society being the ‘superstructural’ site of historical development (but ultimately ‘determined’ by the base), Gramsci extends the distinction to argue that civil society is more than just superstructural, but is the essential terrain of historical development. Instead of justifying ideologies emerging from the base into the realm of civil society, for Gramsci the ‘ideas’ are contemporaneous, emerging in civil society, so that man acts on structures rather than structures acting deterministically on man.

In Gramsci’s words: “Structure ceases to be an external force which crushes man, assimilates him to himself and make him passive; and is transformed into a means of freedom, an instrument to create a new ethico-political form and a source of new initiatives. To establish the ‘cathartic’ moment becomes therefore, it seems to me, the starting point for all the philosophy of praxis” (Gramsci 1971: 367, Q10II §6i). This is the practice of hegemony, a hegemony that occurs in the realm of ideas, in the “minds of men” (Gramsci 1971: 367, Q10II §6i). Thus, man is an active subject, and the structures of human life do not exist separately from the thinking of them, and so the question of consciousness, the nature of human subjectivity, is essential to understanding society as it is, and what it can become.


And then to quote myself:
Rei Murasame, Tue 21 Feb 2012, 1426GMT wrote:Since the far right in Europe still has some ideological issues within itself to work out and is still waging a 'war of position' (trying to get people to believe that a particular way of viewing life is 'common sense') [...]

It needs to capture hearts and minds first so that it can lead culturally before it is swept to power. [...] Obviously nationalist parties would be defeated in a liberal hegemony. This is why it is necessary to be critical of the present liberal order [...] and by acting as critics we gain the power to reshape the very terrain of the debate that we are planning to win.

Knowing what question to ask, and what doubt to induce, is just as important as the eventual answer. Yes, questions are ideological. The fact that everyone in Europe accepts that the questions asked by the far right are legitimate questions (something which was not possible just two decades ago) which should be answered, shows that ground is being prepared for future campaigning even in these very days and hours.

Liberals can play the game all they want for now. Just grant to us the ability to be spectator, referee, and commentator, and we on the far right are content with that for now. We will have the minds of your children within a generation.


But none of that can happen without economic power (through labour support) starting from the very beginning:
'National Guilds and the State', S. G. Hobson, 1920 (emphasis added) wrote:[...] economic power precedes and dominates political action [...] It is permanently true in that statesmanship must possess the material means to encompass its ends, precisely as one must have the fare and sustenance before proceeding on a journey. [...] Economic power is not finally found in wealth but in the control of its abundance or scarcity.

If I possessed the control of the water supply, my economic power would be stupendous; but with equal access to water by the whole body of citizens, that economic power is dispersed and the community may erect swimming-baths or fountains or artificial lakes without my permission. Not only so; but the abundance of water, which economically considered is of boundless value, grows less serious as a practical issue the more abundant it becomes.

The dominance of economic power depends, therefore, upon two main considerations artificially, by the private control of wealth; fundamentally, by a natural scarcity.


Now that I've said all that, I will acknowledge that it's sensible to get all of this condensed into tight packages that can be easily understood, but this must be done without compromising their understanding of what is happening to them. You phrased it as "presenting itself as intellectual", but it is not for presentation, it is out of absolute practical necessity.

In short, it's only through painstakingly educating the people on what is happening to them, and allowing them to understand their presence in the situation, that our worldview - rather than remaining a series of complaints and normative statements - can be elevated to a theory of practice and subsequently decisive action.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 19 Apr 2012 15:37, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Dave
#13942263
Brother of Karl wrote:So you support feminism in 3rd world countries?

Yes, although it feels fucked up that we're basically destroying the entire world by exporting our horrible ideology everywhere.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13942275
Why do you think it would destroy them? There are a myriad of cases where supporting both feminism and nationalism in poorer countries and showing solidarity with them, actually serves the aims of the Third Position (as well as the duty that we have to 'assist morally and materially those who feel the same', as per the Third Position motto).

Take for instance the Filipino situation in which their women are all in the North Atlantic, when they ought to actually be in their own country.

Fully 10% of the Filipino women are now in the North Atlantic because of global capitalism:
  • 70% of Overseas Contract Workers (OCWs) are women.
  • They serve as domestic workers in 162 countries.
  • Remittances sent home by those women average €5billion a year.
  • The government of the Philippines uses the economic power generated from the remittances, to pay the international lenders it owes.
  • OCWs supply the Philippines' largest source of foreign exchange.
  • Marcos started that nonsense by doing authoritarian capitalism and collaborating with the IMF. Aquino, Ramos, Estrada, Arroyo, and ass-kisser Aquino III only perpetuated and exacerbated it.
  • An average of 4 dead OCWs are sent back to the Philippines every day.

Those figures alone cannot even properly illustrate the racial subjugation that those women are enduring daily. Helping the Philippines to become feminist, nationalist, and anti-capitalist, is a step that ought to be taken if we are to stop this nonsense and also curb their migration into our countries.

Helping Filipinos to rise up against their disgusting government and go back home, also helps women of all classes in the North Atlantic too. How? Well, the Filipinos are over here in Europe acting as maids and private child-minders and thus giving the European states more alibis to refuse to develop child-care services at the state level further ("oh," saith the capitalists, "but you have many miserable Filipino maids you could hire, we don't need to fund child care services run by the state!"). By depriving the capitalists of that alibi, it helps women in the North Atlantic to gain the traction necessary to call for universal child care in those states that did not have it, regardless of social class.
User avatar
By Dave
#13942341
Feminism will destroy Third World countries for the same reason it destroys First World countries.

Destruction of the family, massive hostility and distrust between the sexes, emasculated men, and a collapse in birth rates.

The issues to which you refer I would not consider a feminist issue per se. If I were Filipino I would be shocked and appalled and work to combat the problems you cite, yet I hate feminism.

I also support capitalism and consider your anti-capitalism absurd and defeatist. We are the winners of the world, and our system is capitalism. It clearly needs reform, but the system works, and it works for us.

I have a much simpler solution than "helping" Filipinas: send them home on the first ship and solve our own problems without them.

In any case I have no interest in showing solidarity with Third World countries, because I hate them. This is why I support exporting feminism to these countries so as to ruin them.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13942351
I'm just about to go for extremely late lunch, but I will just say this as a quick response. Basically Dave it's like you are ideologically in error, because we have been specifically told before that the same discursive and economic manoeuvres that are required by developing countries, are similar to those that we'd need to adopt. That is not expected to still be a novel idea, it's the accepted strategy.

Rather than arbitrarily hating them, we should encourage them to mirror our ideology, where possible (in cases where we have no geopolitical tension with them otherwise). Not only does it reduce the number of people that we have to struggle against, but it really annoys international financiers and wins us allies abroad. It also is instrumental in building our power base up.

I also have no idea how you think that the present system can still be reformed!

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