[Mazhi]

Just one thing...Laibach aren't fascists. Their music is intended to mock fascists. As Stipe once said.. "The fascists who listen to Laibach...The joke is on you."

http://www.losthighwaytimes.com/2008/09 ... attle.html

Very good show. Went through the entire Volk album of altered national anthems in order, then played songs from WAT and one from NATO before taking bows and letting literal credits play on the video screens behind them.

If there was a doubt about whether or not Laibach are fascists or pro-fascist this tour should put it to an end. In particular, the big surprise, the video presentation behind "Italia", indicates it. First off, their version of the Italian national anthem mixes in "Avanti Populo", the Partisan and Communist song, in with the anthem itself. Second, it says "What god made you the slave of Rome?", a reference to the first stanza of the anthem, while playing shots of the evil people in Pasolini's film "Salo, or the 120 days of Sodom", which is both a reference to the Fascist Salo Republic of late World War II and to historical fascists as inhuman abusers of people. Salo features rape, torture, murder, forced eating of feces, general abuse, of young adults kidnapped and brought to a castle, held in captivity for the protagonists to use as they will.

Good film, definitely the darkest of Pasolini's career. It's good that Laibach know and like him.

The tour is almost over but if you're in, say, LA or New York, where they haven't played yet, I recommend going down and seeing them.

[Benjamin Noyles]

Has it ever occured to you nazis might actually like nazisploitation films

[Mazhi]

Trust me, Laibach wouldn't get a hard on imagining their own kin dying at the hands of Nazis and Fascists.

I have insider information.

Even their name is a mockery. Laibach is what the Germans named Ljubljana.

[Benjamin Noyles]

Trust me, Laibach wouldn't get a hard on imagining their own kin dying.

Give me one good reason why not?

I have insider information

Yeah and I know the queen.

Even their name is a mockery of fascism. Laibach is what the Germans named Ljubljana.

That could mean any one of twenty things I can think of right now (all of them wrong), as is the case with everything else they do.

[Mazhi]

Name the 20 things.

[Benjamin Noyles]

Name the 20 things.

Hapily, but you are just posponing the innevitable.
In relation to sphere of influence under german speaking peoples:
1 The occupation Ljubljana under the holy roman empire
2 The occupation Ljubljana under the Austro-Hungarian empire
3 The occupation Ljubljana under the Third Reich
4 The occupation Ljubljana under the European Union (of which germany is the center)
5 Fought with Germany in the first world war
6 Fought with Germany in the second world war through its client regime

In relation to german power in a european context:
7 Germany as the linguistic center of europe
8 Germany as the economic/industrial center of europe
9 Germany as the political center of europe
10 Germany as the Military center of europe
11 German speaking peoples as the most populous group of 'Europe' proper

In relation to Political and artistic ideas:
12 The concept of pan german-slavimsm which has come about in various ideologies
13 Ljubljana as the new city in the national bolshevik maxism, Sparta, Potsdam, Moscow
14 Siding with germany in response to the east west split; germany as a symbol against the western powers
15 The Racial superiority of the german speaking population (in Ljubljana)
16 The Relevance of the German language to the dadaist art movement
17 Conceptual colaberatonism as a moral statment eg Siding with the beast
18 The german as the hun and the barbarian coming to destroy civility
19 Germany as a symbol of something that is seeking redemption
20 Exploration of the spenglarian view of faustian (german) civilization with which he was most concernerd




My point is all that is bullshit, anyone who does an A level in media studies can tell you all that, it is called deconstruction, and it is all bullshitting. It is in part all these things and none of them, you completely miss the point of what an artist is.

[Mazhi]

I do know what art is and how artists operate. I'm not from yesterday.

That's why I know that you have to look at the whole picture. Do me a favor, listen to the entire Volk album. Compare the songs (anthems). Put 2 and 2 together. Compare what each song is telling you, and try to get what the general message is.

[Jackal]

Noyles 1 - 0 Mahzi.

In any case, Laibach isn't very good regardless of what it stands for.

[Benjamin Noyles]

I do know what art is and how artists operate. I'm not from yesterday.

That's why I know that you have to look at the whole picture. Do me a favor, listen to the entire Volk album. Compare the songs (anthems). Put 2 and 2 together. Compare what each song is telling you, and try to get what the general message is.

If this is about the whole picture why are you always nattering on about the Volk album, you have listened to their other stuff yes? As I have just demonstrated it is not a case of putting 2 and 2 together, more like 2 and 512, all wrong. Interpretation is just that, and I made my point there, it is worthless because we don't know what the views of the band are. I never said they were fascists, but they are artists who I think are serious about their work and that artform as an inherrant politics regardless of the artist (artists can usually canvass a wide range of views).

Futurism was an artform which was inherrantly fascistic before fascism even existed and is more than partly responsible for helping it on the way up, yet not all futurists identified themselves on the radical right, as you are aware it also had a precedence in the soviet union, but the result was the same in both regimes regardless of the proclaimed ideology, it is inherrantly militant, violent, Energetic Vitalist, forward thinking, and I think Laibach is much the same, or at least used to be, artists go through stages. I think they feel in a now in a uniopolar world the best way to 'satirise' is to Troll the deconstructivist and nihilistic west.

People elsewhere on the internet have actually said I am a satirist in much the way you your own logic works. I also put to you in essence Laibach also differ very little from the other martial industrial experiment I mentioned (Stalnoy Pakt) which is overtly political, yet one can equally interpret it as satire.

As a Slovenian your imput is appriciated. I might add that Tallyoh is a massive laibach fan and will probably have something interesting to say on this commentary.

Noyles 1 - 0 Mahzi.

In any case, Laibach isn't very good regardless of what it stands for

Yeah, but they were very revolutionary at the time and inspired an entire genre. Think of it more as art than easy listening.

[Lokakyy]

If this is about the whole picture why are you always nattering on about the Volk album, you have listened to their other stuff yes?

I have, and the parody of totalitarianism is pretty much self-evident in albums as early as Nova Akropola...

[youtube]sRADA7fLVpQ[/youtube]

[Benjamin Noyles]

Then it is pretty 'self evident' I am a satirist also

[Lokakyy]

Then it is pretty 'self evident' I am a satirist also

Well, quoting Tito about the role of state in a setting with fascist symbology seems a bit satirical, to be honest, considering they pretty much got banned in former Yugoslavia.

I'm glad that we got to the topic. Great band.

[Fasces]

The state syndicalism of Tito is remarkably similar to the philosophy of national syndicalism in Italy after WWI. That Tito and fascist symbolism are used together is not very surprising, in my belief, as it is relatively easy to reconcile the two.

[Benjamin Noyles]

Well, quoting Tito about the role of state in a setting with fascist symbology seems a bit satirical, to be honest, considering they pretty much got banned in former Yugoslavia.

Yes yes yes, it is all very obvious, but how do you know that? I too would be very suprised if they were 100% serious, but the question is who exactly is the joke on. So you think you know what they are against, what does that really tell you what they stand for? it is a pretty heavy presumption when you think about it, and that is if you think you have the right information. A satirist should have his own political view (otherwise he is something of a hypocrite), if you don't know what their political views are or if they even have any, how do you know they are satirists?

The state syndicalism of Tito is remarkably similar to the philosophy of national syndicalism in Italy after WWI. That Tito and fascist symbolism are used together is not very surprising, in my belief, as it is relatively easy to reconcile the two.

Another example of the principle of uncertainty, you say it is too ridiculous to be serious, and another says it is logically and Ideologically consistant.

[telluro]

The state syndicalism of Tito is remarkably similar to the philosophy of national syndicalism in Italy after WWI. That Tito and fascist symbolism are used together is not very surprising, in my belief, as it is relatively easy to reconcile the two.

Nor indeed could it be considered very satirical contemporarily to combine fascist notions/symbolism with communist notions/symbolism.

[Luck19]

Jesus, you fascists are lame. Oh well, why would I be surprised by that they want to have the state impose certain "moral values" on everyone else. If there was a fascist state I would laugh if it bit you right in the ass and banned all classical music.

No, most radical left musicians are moral cowards who deny the outcome of their own ideas, when was the last time you heard Rage against the machine or Billy Bragg sing in praise of the progress bought by the mass slaughters under Stalin and Mao? They are hypocrites and worms.

The obviously you have never heard of a hip-hop song called "Chairman Mao" by Bambu or a rapper by the name of J. Stalin.

[Inexorable]

Jesus, you fascists are lame. Oh well, why would I be surprised by that they want to have the state impose certain "moral values" on everyone else. If there was a fascist state I would laugh if it bit you right in the ass and banned all classical music.

You joined Politics Forum just so you could make a comment about the unlikely scenario of fascist regimes banning classical music in a subforum called 'Platonism & Dictatorship'. You presumably did this in order to appear hip and clever, as further revealed by your reference to obscure hip-hop artists. You attack fascist 'moral values' yet are likely a moralist yourself. Something tells me the only lame one here is you.

[Rei Murasame]

Oh well, why would I be surprised by that they want to have the state impose certain "moral values" on everyone else.

Is there any type of State that doesn't do this in some way? I haven't found one yet.

[Preston Cole]

He's a troll, guys. Stop feeding him.

[Benjamin Noyles]

The obviously you have never heard of a hip-hop song called "Chairman Mao" by Bambu or a rapper by the name of J. Stalin.

I thought my point was there is an insane ammount of this trashy communist music, who hasn't heard Rainbow Stalin?
[youtube]sjZZgRiKKGw[/youtube]

It still stands that none of that crap will advocate it in any way that takes responsibility for its atrocities.