Free Market Capitalism and it's failure in the 21st century - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#13581612
Just something I wrote, please point out any factual inconsistencies, or gaps in my knowledge, I am primarily here for self-improvement and improvement in my knowledge in regard to Fascism/Platonism.


Capitalism as we know it, or total Free Market economics as espoused by the U.S/Western World is slowly grinding to a halt. Much like Communism, absolutes have shown their failure in the modern world, and America itself has slowly distanced itself from pure Free Market Economics.

What's the problem? Central to this is the differing opinions held by nations and corporations.

Capitalism at it's extreme advocates the freedom and lax regulations necessary for corporations to flourish. Granted this has been the driving force of it in the PRE-GLOBALIZED world. The reason Capitalism succeeded in the U.S during 1945-1990 was mainly because U.S industry remained in the U.S and did not start outsourcing, primarily because the West/Allies had comparable labour cost ( allies in relation to the Cold War). Chinese investment only began in the late 1980s, following Deng Xiaoping's reforms of the Chinese economy. The U.S was economically at the peak of it's power when the Cold War was drawing to a close.

However, following the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the restructuring of the world around a unipolar world Superpower - the United States, economics rapidly shifted from mainly nation-centric and slight-investment/ capital flow to major capital flow/investment and less-nation centric. Eagerness to exploit the massive untapped market of formerly communist countries in Eastern Europe and Russia lead to investors pouring capital heavily into these countries, sponsored and encouraged by the government, who believed that democracy and Free Market Capitalism would go hand in hand. As we can see today, this is not the case in Eastern Europe, and instead of rising, the standard of living for some citizens has actually dropped from the Communist period.

Though this brings out another flaw in Capitalism, mainly it's incompatibility with democracy. it is not the primary one I am discussing and as such I will move on. Investment in China, East Asia, South-East Asia and South Asia was the hallmark of the post-Cold War age. Why should companies have to pay massive labour costs in countries like the U.S, Britain etc, when they could get a worker in China/India working in a factory for 1/10th the cost? As profit is the main goal of corporations, and not nation-centric interests, naturally corporations started dismantling and relocating industry and infrastructure to Asia. And with it went all the Capital locked up in that particular corporation, and as a result that Capital was removed from the American/European economy. However, the impact of this was not keenly felt until decades later, as these corporations continued to sell where cost/demand was highest, back at home in America, as such the shift from a production-based to a consumer based economy occurred. Sure, the companies are listed in the American stock-exchange, sure they still provide to the American people, but do these companies really "exist" in the physical sense to America? The answer is, clearly no. The transition from a "creating" (manufacturing) economy to a "consuming" economy is apparent.

But you ask, what's so critical about a manufacturing base? Is it necessary for an economy? The answer is extremely and yes.
Since most of the things that the are critical to the functioning of a modern society are manufactured, it is vital that a country hold some sort of portion of manufacturing, ensuring that they can't economically be held hostage by another nation who possesses manufacturing that they rely on. Being a consumer-centric economic wholly has almost little to no technological or progressive benefits to the country. Sure, America has some advanced pharmaceutics, genetics and aeronautics industries, but these account for a small portion of the economy, the majority of revenue is generated as a result of jobs providing information/administration and service to the "consuming" economy, and taxes on the imported goods that have changed hands. If you have an economy solely centred around catering to the consumer, the result is you are not going to see many industrial innovations appearing from that country. Why? Because most of the technology that is being aimed is aimed at improving and enhancing either the ease/comfort/standard of living/technology, for example, take the mobile phone, iPod or iPad. All have moved leaps and bounds, yet nothing "revolutionary" so to speak has changed industry yet. All that exists is a luxury market catered to improving people's entertainment and needs, BUT not the nations wants.

So as a result of its low-high-end manufacturing base, the U.S imports more goods than it exports, as a result it has a trade deficit, and a deficit of any kind isn't good. The thing is, China, which exports TO the U.S invest this money back into the American Economy, because without this, it would go bust, and if it went bust, so would the Chinese Economy. Now, what we have gentlemen and (ladies) is an economy on a timer. Can the U.S rebuild it's economy before China can abandon it for it's own domestic market?

Capital and Corporations flow like water, to the lowest point, in this case where labour costs are cheapest. If unregulated, they move swiftly to another nation, taking a vast amount of capital that has been invested in them by the nation (stock markets) and removing it from that nations economy. It is diametrically opposed to the interest of the state.

As such, a regulated economy, a la corporatism, is necessary, because one has to ensure that large corporations (where outsourcing occurs) have either state oversight, or state control, as this is the only way that the nations interests can exist or be put ahead those of pure profit-motivated corporations. Small-scale business would live on normally under Corporatism as it would under Capitalism, with subsidies to encourage small business, as Large Business tends to liquidate and destroy Small Business in its infancy. Protection for small business would be ensured by the State as well.

Also, a regulated economy would involve strict control of key financial sectors, like housing, who's deregulation was responsible for the sub-prime mortgage crisis and the eventual Global Financial Crisis. A relatively regulated economy would mean that not only the nations interests are not compromised, but that nothing like a financial meltdown occurs. Of course, the regulation must avoid necessary taxes and the such, as it would merely stifle potential economic growth.

To be fair to the West, a regulated economy is probably the only thing that can save them when China finally loses it's reliance on it's markets and shifts to its developing domestic market. A regulated economy would ensure that information, capital and most importantly manpower, remained in the system instead of flowing to a country where costs are cheaper. Would this mean running on a loss, especially if your standard of living is higher? Yes, and it is a governments duty to maintain the loss, UNTIL it can accelerate technological growth that can help the company compete on a global scale with companies employing lower labour costs. Why is it so necessary? All of the above on manufacturing says so, as it not only holds together the economy of the nation, but socially too, giving and fostering a sense of community within the industry.

Cheers,

A ironically Fascist/Oligarchist Lonekommie.
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By starman2003
#13581618
Capitalism incompatible with democracy? They go hand in hand. Both are intended to give the masses what they want i.e. serve the individual rather than the state. IMO an activist state has trouble coexisting with capitalism, since it wants production and resources to further its agenda e.g. tanks or space probes instead of private cars and junk food.
By Preston Cole
#13581732
Not really, starman. Capitalism isn't necessarily contradictory within statism, as different variants of command capitalism exist: State capitalism, National capitalism, protectionist capitalism, social capitalism, etc. Even corporatism is a type of capitalism in which the state is seen as a patron as opposed to the company as a patron of the state. War capitalism (the one seen under the late Nazi regime) can adequately produce what you mentioned (tanks and space probes). The crucial step the state must take, however, is strengthening itself and stepping over civil liberties in order to change modern capitalism. You need not ostracize the managers and capitalists. Just point a gun to their face and command them to follow your orders. Laissez-faire would be a thing of the past.

Of course, Stalinism shouldn't be neglected, and it's probably a much more efficient instrument of progress than whatever types of command capitalism there currently are. In fact, I can't really think of any downsides to Stalin's state socialism apart from the fact that he still relied on Marxist doctrine and maintained the state socialist system well after the war instead of relaxing the economy or returning to Lenin's NEP. Besides that, the tradition of capitalist management should be continued, because the managers have far more experience in a relatively "free" market.

Incidentally, would you envision state socialism to be the preferable economic system under Wholism? That could possibly spell the end of class collaboration.
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By starman2003
#13582351
Just point a gun to their face and command them to follow your orders.


:lol: I agree it isn't necessary for the State to own the factories and enterprises, as long as it exercises a great deal of control. Fascists seemed cleverer than the communists; let the capitalists technically still own their enterprises, while in reality the State makes all the decisions. In the future, though, advanced tech might bring about State ownership. If machines eventually supplant much of humanity in the workplace, that could be the end of the market economy, and private enterprise. Those displaced won't be able to buy the goods produced, and they'll have to look to the State for employment or survival. Private companies will go under, and the State will take over, becoming bigger and more activist than ever.
By Walter_Nowotny
#13583027
Capitalism just gives people the freedom to do what they want and what they want is towards their own benefit usually... Capitalism is also very corrupt and exploits the citizenry. :*(
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By starman2003
#13583178
The fundamental orientation of capitalists is quite different from that of statists or Wholists. Like people in general, capitalists want great personal gain. The state, society or some lofty goal are usually secondary. A state or whole-oriented system needn't nationalize capitalist property, but it should definitely be the paramount partner in any association--e.g. "point a gun to their face"-- to ensure better priorities.

Capitalism is also very corrupt and exploits the citizenry.


It's worst feature is that it caters to the citizenry. Production is geared toward fulfilling individual desires--porn, booze, junk food...
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By Figlio di Moros
#13583703
You never answered me, what's so wrong with porn and booze? Neither consume such a great portion of financial or productive consumption, and provide sanity for the majority. There are much worse, more subtle subersive factors needing counteraction.
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By starman2003
#13583962
[/quote]..what's so wrong with porn and booze?[/quote]

They're symptomatic of a culture in which material or sensual gratification, for the individual, overshadows any sense of higher purpose. I'm sure they, together with drugs, junk food etc, consume considerable resources--more than is currently spent on space.

..provide sanity for the majority..


:lol: I don't think alcohol, or drugs, are particularly conducive to cognitive functioning.

There are much worse, more subtle subersive factors needing counteraction.


True the heart of the problem is current basic ideology--libertarian "anything goes" and christianity.
By Preston Cole
#13583977
I largely agree with Starman's opinion on junk food and porn, but booze? You have no idea how drunk people got in Stalin's Russia. :lol:

Junk food is simply destructive and obesity-causing for the individual. There's nothing significantly healthy about it and I think it should be changed and sanitized for the purpose of maintaining a healthy and strong future society. There are other incurable ills that already affect our strength (cancers, hereditary diseases) and we can do without additional problems regarding foods. Space seems like an unconquerable behemoth when we worry about the parasites that plague the human race.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13584131
I left junk food aside because, however much /GDP, it has devastating health consequences. Porn, however, doesn't.

Really, I can't see why either of you would consider it an issue. My porn collection occupies minimal amount of my time, mostly time I'd waste anyways, helps combat stress, costs barely anything, and is one of the simple pleasures. Not to mention porn can help lead to more satisfying relationships, which in turn means stronger social bonds and greater aptitude towards civic mindedness.

I'm not saying it should be flaunted out in the open, but you seem to ignore the maxim "liberty in private." Stripping society of booze, porn, or chewing gum because "wouldn't it be cool to go into space" is asinine, unnecessary, and sure as shit counter productive.
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By starman2003
#13584819
You have no idea how drunk people got got in Stalin's Russia.


I can assure you I was aware of that. :) Two things though: the soviets inherited that from the past, and just as we reject other aspects of past authoritarianism, like aryan racial theories, we needn't get "crocked" either. ;)

Stripping society of booze, porn, or chewing gum because "wouldn't it be cool to go into space" is asinine, unnecessary and sure as shit counterproductive.


We needn't get rid of all amenities. But they should be reduced in quantity, significantly, in the interest of individuals as well as the state. Lots of people, if given the chance, will abuse these things. They'll get drunk, or high, bloated with junk food, even exploit children to satisfy demand for porn, and society will pay.... It's another example of how the irresponsibility of too many individuals makes authoritarianism a good idea. Btw we won't go into space just because it's cool but for practical reasons like exploiting vast new resources.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13584967
starman2003 wrote:We needn't get rid of all amenities. But they should be reduced in quantity, significantly, in the interest of individuals as well as the state. Lots of people, if given the chance, will abuse these things.


It depends which amenities; cigarettes and junk food, eliminate. Booze? It's not a problem in moderation, and it's not the 1910's where everyone has a six pack before bed every night.

Porn? You didn't respond to me on that; porn-abusers are known as "sex-addicts", satyrists, nymphos, and porn's really the least of their problem. These rare few are typically a result of sexual abuse, iirc, and we need to treat them. The rest of society doesn't have a problem handling porn, and it can have extensive effects in relationships. The better relationships are in the bedroom, the better the relationship is; the stronger effect they have on society.
By Preston Cole
#13585004
Freedom and goodness are the most exploitable things in the universe. My opinion is that a civilized political society should by default be one that restricts certain freedoms, not this "most things are tolerated" liberal democracy. Obesity is a big problem everywhere, and it's clear that it came with modern democracy. Not to sound apologetic, but if you discard most of the allegations of poverty and famine under Stalinist states (which aren't true post-1950 anyway), you'll see the communist state had a very restrictive policy on what sort of foods were allowed to be consumed because it was concerned with combating obesity. Back in the day, you could really only find one chain of stores that served pastry with a few natural drinks and they were pretty much all you needed to settle your hunger between meals. Junk fast food requires serious regulation.

I completely agree with the concept that humans should strive for goals that exceed their immediate needs. Poverty and hunger should be a non-problem in a civilized society, as they're remnants of a liberal world that rejects higher goals. It's not difficult to provide the necessary nutrition and housing for most members of society, but they're merely the much-needed tools with which individuals can work successfully.

Figlio di Moros wrote:The better relationships are in the bedroom, the better the relationship is; the stronger effect they have on society.

And the bitch'll leave you the minute you're not in the mood to satisfy her. :lol:
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By Figlio di Moros
#13585031
Preston Cole wrote:The better relationships are in the bedroom, the better the relationship is; the stronger effect they have on society.

And the bitch'll leave you the minute you're not in the mood to satisfy her. :lol:


Speaking from personal experience, there? :eh:
By Preston Cole
#13585048
Not really, just from what I've heard. A relationship based primarily on sex isn't that sustainable in the long term.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13585077
Who said primarily? However, a relationship needs a strong basis in sex, or else it will fail.
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By starman2003
#13585453
It's not a problem in moderation...


Sure, like I said, quantities should be restricted. So called "soft porn" is no big deal; indeed opposition to nudity smacks of christian nonsense. Still, while certain amenities may be tolerated in limited amounts or forms, they shouldn't be encouraged. In principle, the state should be against that that even if it's pragmatic and "looks the other way" provided it doesn't amount to much.
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By Fasces
#13593226
What it the spiritual value in banning those objects that detract from a meaningful existence for an individual? It should be up the individual to reject such objects, and willingly move past them, because it is in that act that the spiritual worth emerges. The basic material needs and desires of a person should be provided, both to maximize minimum production capability, but also to provide a method by which we can willingly reject those objects. That being said, making incorrect choices, such as eating too much junk food, should be made very difficult, and such individuals which choose to destroy themselves in such a way should be denied most of their given rights.
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By telluro
#13593587
I see your point, Fasces. But the problem today lies with brainwashing kids from an early age so that junk food and porn seem normal. Let's face it, stuff like porn isn't out there because it's a basic need - it's out there to make money, and those who make money off it, will go to very great lengths to sell it, make it seem good, and be addictive. What you have basically is the individual versus a gargantuan almost all-encompassing environment, in some cases.
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By starman2003
#13593978
It should be up to the individual to reject such objects, and willingly move past them...


Unfortunately too many people just don't have the requisite grey matter. For their sake as well as the good of the whole, the state shouldn't leave the decision to them. Again it may find it expedient to tolerate certain amenities and luxuries in limited forms and quantities. But overall they should be reduced by two thirds or more. :)

What you have basically is the individual versus a gargantuan almost all-encompassing environment..


I don't think many/most individuals have a problem with it. Only a responsible, enlightened minority are against the degenerate system. But I think they'll prevail.

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