[starman2003]

National Socialism is not a system conducive to negotiation.

Nazi diplomacy was actually efficacious in the late thirties e.g. Munich, the nazi-soviet pact.

When a society starts thinking they have a right to everything including wealth and territories that belong to other groups...you got problems.

Things can get messy short term, but hegemonization can have considerable longterm benefits e.g. Pax Romana.

[Suska]

hegemonization can have considerable longterm benefits

Maybe it helps if it's not economically dependent on building a war industry. The problem with the Third Reich was that it HAD to lead to war and there are no "barbarian" territories left.

[starman2003]

..there are no "barbarian" territories left.

Roman conquest wasn't limited to barbarian territories. They also took Carthage, Greece, Egypt and the Near East. Spreading civilization wasn't the only benefit; hegemonization and political unity meant relative peace.

[Suska]

Arguably they considered Carthage barbarians, but even so you're talking about the Republic, the Caesar's military capacities were judged by what they did well beyond the Rubicon. My point was that Rome wasn't surrounded by other Romes as Nazi Germany was. It had a frontier instead of a border. Attacking Germans had implications late in the period when they started to organize themselves, but together they couldn't hold off Aurelius and they certainly didn't cry out for the Rus or the Celts to jump in.

[starman2003]

Arguably they considered Carthage barbarians..

No way; they were great seafarers and merchants.

It had a frontier instead of a border.

Not necessarily, even during the Empire. Parthia/Persia to the east was a state, and a well-defined border existed between the two. There was also Dacia.

[Suska]

I stand by my assessment. The world with 2 or 3 million people in it is not the same as the world with 2 or 3 billion, and Romans had no such respect for Carthage, they beat them down and left a charcoal ruin while at the same time assimilating and controlling Egypt and Greece.

[starman2003]

The world with 2 or 3 million people in it..

Estimates of the population of the Roman Empire alone are 50 million plus.

..is not the same as the world with 2 or 3 billion..

Try about 7 billion. Actually in some respects the present world is much more ripe for unification, given the way mass communications and trade have knited it together.

..they beat them down and left a charcoal ruin..

IIRC it was Goldsworthy's book on the punic wars which showed old Roman accounts of erasing Carthage completely to be greatly exaggerated.

[Suska]

None of which alters my position in the slightest.

[starman2003]

..Rome wasn't surrounded by other Romes as Nazi Germany was.

The latter wasn't in the best position to play the hegemonization game; a future US may be in a much better position--although even they could have done much better.

[Verv]

A military-type society is not desirable.

There are some aspects of the military that would be useful to incorporate into education systems, but the military is something that is very demanding and disciplinary... Because, it requires such when in battle.

The average person does not require this in their day to day life on a large level by any means.

Rather, the education system should be aware of some generally military practices, e.g. some military concepts of fitness and execution of tasks, as well as the concept of punishment, would be excellent for youth that are growing up.

[starman2003]

..very demanding and disciplinary....The average person does not require this in their day to day life on a large level by any means.

The average person may not need to prepare for combat, but discipline and supervision may go a long way in curbing irresponsible behavior at the heart of economic and environmental problems.

[Suska]

The ideal military is more or less the ideally secure organization of humans, ready in a complete way at maximum potential. That doesn't mean everyone is a combatant, it doesn't even mean that society is war-like. No one gets to be stupid without being called out on it. But like I already pointed out; if it wasn't voluntary it would be a nightmare-police state like North Korea. Plus, as much as I can appreciate a badass such an organization might tend to squelch creativity, life isn't entirely a violent contest and authoritarian regimes don't tend to last long. The value of such an organization would be in that it was both capable of a security and capable of much more gentle roles as well, such as medicine and courtship.

[ralfy]

Thus, more like the corporatist society envisioned by fascists, where everyone works together and guided by a strong leader.