[ralfy]

Basically, christianity is anything but a natural ally of fascism or aggressive statism. Almost anything could serve it better.

I think the second sentence contradicts the first. That is, if "almost anything could serve it better," then it becomes a "natural ally of fascism or aggressive statism," or the opposite.

[starman2003]

Almost anything could serve the aggressive or fascist state better than christianity. Maybe some things would be even worse--voodoo maybe?

[Orestes]

Duvalier actually made a pretty good use of voodoo.

Duvalier held in his closet the head of his former opponent Blucher Philogenes, who tried to overthrow him in 1963

Is that badass or what ?

[starman2003]

Duvalier actually made a pretty good use of voodoo.

Hmmm.....so maybe even that is better than christianity.

[Zenno]

Religious institutions will always be on the side of the powers-that-be, no matter how repressive. They have to be for the simple reason of self-preservation. The Vatican did not oppose the Nazis even when the inhumanity of it became clear. Buddhists in Japan (whose highest goal is supposed to be the preservation of life) actively supported Japanese militarism and even funded Kamikaze airplanes.

A fascist regime may use existing religious organizations to justify its rule if these organizations can be made to comply with the aims of the regime. Alternately, fascist regimes will proclaim their own ideology, materialist or not. One way or another, it doesn’t make any difference whatsoever. Anyways, atheists can be more ardent believers than Catholics; and as the ultimate arbitrator, the Communist Party plays a role equivalent to that of the Vatican.

There are of course examples in which the Church or other religious organizations were instrumental in overthrowing unpopular regimes: the previous pope (who was Polish for a very good reason) was instrumental in the downfall of communism. Doing so, he served the interests of the dominant imperial power at the time. At the same time, the Vatican showed much less vigor when it came to bringing down rightwing dictatorships in Latin America.

The Vatican has been at odds with successive Chinese regimes ever since the Jesuit fathers first set their feet in China in the early 16th century because, unlike the Christian nations of Europe, the Chinese never accepted foreign-dominated religious groups to operate on its territory. To the Chinese everything is political: even a bible-study group or a literary study group may lead to the overthrow of the regime. Therefore it needs to be brought under the control of the regime. Having said that, I think Chinese rulers today would very much love to have some sort of religion to inculcate moral behavior on a population that is increasingly motivated by materialistic goals only. I think Confucianism is unlike to be sufficient as a regime-supporting ideology in modern times. And what is left of communism is not much more than a farce or hollowed out ideology.

[starman2003]

Having said that, I think Chinese rulers today would very much love to have some sort of religion to inculcate moral behavior on a population that is increasingly motivated by materialistic goals only. I think Confucianism is unlike to be sufficient as a regime-supporting ideology in modern times. And what is left of communism is not much more than a farce or hollowed out ideology.

Christianity isn't much better, and inevitably it's waning as education and knowledge (i.e. real world) expand. Look how hard it's been lately to find men willing to become priests. Few take that crap seriously enough anymore to be willing to make the necessary sacrifices like celibacy.
Certainly something is needed to make people think in loftier terms than crass materialism. But that will have to be something new.

[ralfy]

The religion that can best serve such a state is capitalism. In fact, not just serve it but even take over.

[Rei Murasame]

Given that Starman rejects the labour element of fascism, it is likely that his particular type of approach would indeed be untrammelled capitalism in practice.

[starman2003]

Given that Starman rejects the labour element of fascism, it is likely that his particular type of approach would indeed be untrammelled capitalism in practice.

Noooo Waaaay! The STATE should be supreme. Real fascism or statism does not really mesh well with capitalism. The latter is about individual self aggrandizement; serious fascism puts the state above all and stands for individual sacrifice. The last thing I'd want to see is "untrammeled" capitalism, in which the state plays almost no role, and capitalists use the national resources to produce all kinds of silly junk for the dummies who want it. I want resources devoted to fulfilling an aggressive state's agenda---tanks and space probes instead of private gas guzzlers, bubble gum and porn.

[Rei Murasame]

Okay, but you surely have to acknowledge though, that private cars, pornography, and bubble-gum, are actually a side-show which must exist alongside whatever grand goals you happen to be aiming for, right?

A lot of people rail against 'the little things' in life, but those things are actually necessary because people are not going to co-operate with you if you come and take away - without replacing - absolutely everything that they like.

[starman2003]

A lot of people rail against 'the little things' in life, but those things are actually necessary because people are not going to co-operate with you if you come and take away - without replacing - absolutely everything that they like.

Sure, not absolutely everything.