[Fasci XP]

What role do you think religion ought to play in the Fascist state?

I am, myself, an atheist, and I believe that religion would be a hindrance to the aims of the Fascist state, as it exalts the "above", the "out there", and not the human willpower which is right here, down-to-Earth, and which is what we need as a nation.

[telluro]

Theoretically many agree with you, but in practice, examine the religious and the non-religious, and you'll find that the will-power and the energy is monopolised by the first.

A religion is necessary, even if it is a secular ideological religion.

[Fasci XP]

Fair enough. I was referring exclusively to superstitious religion, anyways. A religion more akin to philosophy which exalts the nation and motivates the people would, of course, be a good thing.

[Andropov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God-Building

[Fasci XP]

In a Fascist state, could there not be "God-building" exalting our own Fascist ideals? I am adamantly opposed to superstition, but not so much to a "religion of reason", but then, that is not what I classify as religion.

[starman2003]

I am, myself, an atheist..

Welcome to the club.

I believe that religion would be a hindrance to the aims of a fascist state..

I'll say, especially christianity-- the utter antithesis of an activist, secular, hegemonist regime.

A religion is necessary, even if it is a secular ideological religion.

Certainly some kind of ideology is needed as the basis of the system. But one shouldn't characterize secular ideology as a "religion." The latter implies a supernatural, antirational belief system, unlike one founded on rationality or science.

[Rei Murasame]

Certainly some kind of ideology is needed as the basis of the system.

This is some serious unorthodoxy though, which came first, the idea or system? Surely the system should be fitting to the idea and not the other way around.

But one shouldn't characterize secular ideology as a "religion." The latter implies a supernatural, antirational belief system, unlike one founded on rationality or science.

But then how did the PNF manage to do it?

[Bosnjak]

I am, myself, an atheist, and I believe that religion would be a hindrance to the aims of the Fascist state, as it exalts the "above", the "out there", and not the human willpower which is right here, down-to-Earth, and which is what we need as a nation.

Fanko and Mussolini were not Secular they were allied with the Church, but they had no technological progress in their countries


The Nazis were extremly secular, they were extemly innovative, and technologically advanced.



Commonly is this the case: Secular State, works well, religous states works but never ever can it reach its full potencial.

[starman2003]

Fanko and Mussolini were not Secular the were allied with the Church,

I understand Mussolini at least, was an atheist, who was "allied" to the church only because there was no alternative in the catholic country.

The Nazis were extremely secular, they were extremely innovative, and technologically advanced.

In fact the nazis fell behind the allies in a number of areas. Shirer wrote that nazi rule ruined the quality of technical colleges.

[Varg]

Positive Christianity is surely the best option. We need a virile religion and never the degenerate and feminine Christianity of nowadays. Atheism always degenerates into materialism.

[starman2003]

Positive Christianity is surely the best option. We need a virile religion and never the degenerate and feminine Christianity of nowadays.

Christianity is complete hogwash. It's not just what Dawkins and Hawking know; try reading Erhman. No worthwhile system incorporates hogwash, which is waning anyway.

Atheism always degenerates into materialism.

The repudiation of christianity does indeed cause degeneracy, but only if the holy bs isn't replaced by a secular ideology which provides a new source of meaning and purpose--and a much truer one.

[Far-Right Sage]

A national faith which evokes a rather strident and uplifting mythology is essential.

I believe Hinduism is a rather crucial example. Of course, such a faith must be tailored to the national culture. If Germany can't return to Teutonic pagan roots, it should still do it's very best to evoke the martial myth and imagery of the Teutons in the conquest of Baltic Prussia and other areas. Perhaps this can be tied into a form of Positive Christianity.

[starman2003]

A national faith which evokes a rather strident and uplifting mythology is essential.

I believe Hinduism is a rather crucial example. Of course, such a faith must be tailored to the national culture. If Germany can't return to Teutonic pagan roots, it should still do it's very best to evoke the martial myth and imagery of the Teutons in the conquest of Baltic Prussia and other areas. Perhaps this can be tied into a form of Positive Christianity.

All so passe. Here we are at the dawn of a new millennium, an age of rapidly accelerating progress. A reversion to such stuff strikes me as so archaic, so anachronistic and impossible...If you want authoritarianism in modern times, in modern societies, you just gotta base it on rationality.

[Potemkin]

All so passe. Here we are at the dawn of a new millennium, an age of rapidly accelerating progress. A reversion to such stuff strikes me as so archaic, so anachronistic and impossible...If you want authoritarianism in modern times, in modern societies, you just gotta base it on rationality.

Here ya go, Starman: Imperial Truth.

[EastCoastAmerican]

It was the intent that organized religion in a fascist society would become a subjugated tool of the government.

Mussolini suggested in the Doctrine of Fascism that religion could play a positive role in society, but that a fascist's first loyalty should be to the State and not to the Church or a deity.

In a 1933 speech during the signing the Reichskonkordat, Hitler expressed that the Church should be placed under the protection of the State. In exchange, the Church would support the State in all of its duties.

Religion (Christianity, specifically) would be tolerated in a fascist state, but it would be in a subservient role. This seemed to be the end goals of both leaders; Mussolini in particular was not fond of organized religion, and Hitler once considered shifting public sentiment to veneration of Nordic entities. They realized that they couldn't suppress religious belief even within their own movements, so they decided to incorporate it into a lower role.

[starman2003]

It was the intent that organized religion in a fascist society would become a subjugated tool of the government.

They realized that they couldn't suppress religious belief even within their own movements, so they decided to incorporate it into a lower role.

If they really had their way, they'd get rid of it altogether, and through indoctrination of new generations, eventually could've done so. In any event, religion is slowly dying out on its own. The problem with past statists is they predated many of the scientific/material advances which are gradually eroding religion. IMO future fascists/wholists will be in a much more favorable position, in a number of ways.

[Section Leader]

The Abrahamic religions are completely incompatible with fascist ideology in my opinion, no matter which way you look at it. How can one be expected to be strong and win in the grand struggle for survival if one loves his enemies and turns the other cheek to those who strike against him? On the other side of the coin, I'm very sympathetic to pagan religions, mostly Norse/Germanic and Celtic Polytheism, the faiths of my ancestors.

[starman2003]

The Abrahamic religions are completely incompatible with fascist ideology in my opinion, no matter which way you look at it. How can one be expected to be strong and win in the grand struggle for survival if one loves his enemies and turns the other cheek to those who strike against him?

Add to that the utter obsolesence of "god" as an explanation.

On the other side of the coin, I'm very sympathetic to pagan religions, mostly Norse/Germanic and Celtic Polytheism, the faiths of my ancestors.

Right, ancestors; they're for the remote past.

[powertoolsculpture]

What role do you think religion ought to play in the Fascist state?

I am, myself, an atheist, and I believe that religion would be a hindrance to the aims of the Fascist state, as it exalts the "above", the "out there", and not the human willpower which is right here, down-to-Earth, and which is what we need as a nation.

I am an atheist and not myself a fascist, but I do have some general sympathies with inegalitarian political orders. Let me see if I can bang out a few coherent ideas that might be of interest to you:

1) The vast majority of religion has nothing to do with the supernatural, magic, or badly-thought-out Thomistic definitions like 'omnipotence'. Religion, even in its organized and liturgical sense, is basically a combination of folk-culture and community participation.

2) Churches and church-doctrines can be used and subverted so as to elicit the sorts of social norms and subject participation you want. Turning the priests into your agents (whether they're called Deacons or Journalists) is the ancient practice of all political organizations.

3) The church/religion must always be distinguished as either subservient to/dependent upon political authority or it must be neutered into something irrelevant like football.

[starman2003]

2) Churches and church-doctrines can be used and subverted so as to elicit the sorts of social norms and subject participation you want. Turning the priests into your agents (whether they're called Deacons or Journalists) is the ancient practice of all political organizations.

Yes, ancient practice, at least since the byzantines. I doubt it's feasible, however, for a modern, secular/atheistic regime with an agenda antithetical to christian doctrine e.g. hegemonization, eugenics, cloning, euthanasia etc.

3) The church/religion must always be distinguished as either subservient to/dependent upon political authority or it must be neutered into something irrelevant like football.

The ideal--getting rid of it altogether--wasn't feasible for past regimes, but should IMO be possible someday.