[Fasci XP]

Dekky, it is obvious that you simply want to use the negative stigma associated with "Fascism" as an argument itself. That is intellectually lazy and dishonest, so you are no longer worthy of a response.

Commies. Pfft.

[Conscript]

Fascism is rabid class-collaborationist nationalism that uncompromisingly subjugates the working class to state capitalism. Socialism is the opposite, it's the abolition of private property and the distinctions it creates and fascism defends. You can't see the difference?

Hierarchy doesn't really have anything to do with it. You just don't need much of one in socialism compared to fascism. A managerial class, as you put it, has proven itself ultimately opportunistic and destructive (kind of like fascism, come to think of it) in a system of common ownership.

[Wolfman]

And they would be wrong.

And what makes you say that?

Christ that's a lifetimes work. But for starters have you heard of a place called Ethiopia?

So, he was bad with military policy. Anything else?

[Decky]

And what makes you say that?

Seriously :/ What makes me say that fascist Germany was fascist? Have you heard of the night of long knives? It as an event where the SA (they were the working class arm of the Nazi party) had all their leadership murdered because they wanted Hitller to honour all of the original "25 points on Nazism" including socialist ideas on nationalisation. Hitler preferred to ignore that (he had only used those promises to get elected) and stop espousing even the few socialist policies he used to claim to hold to and to focus on the fascist ones (you know corporatism, killing "inferior" races, getting into wars he couldn't win etc).

So, he was bad with military policy. Anything else?

Well there were all those concentration camps the Italians had for gypsies etc. My granddad liberated one btw

I don't know about you but I think that killing people for no reason is bad policy (and is morally a little suspect too in my eyes).

[Wolfman]

Seriously :/ What makes me say that fascist Germany was fascist? Have you heard of the night of long knives? It as an event where the SA (they were the working class arm of the Nazi party) had all their leadership murdered because they wanted Hitller to honour all of the original "25 points on Nazism" including socialist ideas on nationalisation. Hitler preferred to ignore that (he had only used those promises to get elected) and stop espousing even the few socialist policies he used to claim to hold to and to focus on the fascist ones (you know corporatism, killing "inferior" races, getting into wars he couldn't win etc).

Is any of that something Fascism says should happen?

Well there were all those concentration camps the Italians had for gypsies etc. My granddad liberated one btw

I don't know about you but I think that killing people for no reason is bad policy (and is morally a little suspect too in my eyes).

Most of those camps (so far as I'm aware) were small, killed few prisoners, and of the one I can find that killed more than a few hundred people (Rab) it was mostly suspected enemy troops. Aside from terrible military policy, Fascist Italy seemed like a pretty nice place to live.

[Decky]

Most of those camps (so far as I'm aware) were small, killed few prisoners, and of the one I can find that killed more than a few hundred people (Rab) it was mostly suspected enemy troops. Aside from terrible military policy, Fascist Italy seemed like a pretty nice place to live.

Wow, do you not have history lessons over there is the US?

Rab was basically small potatoes only 15,000 inmates and only about 20% died year it's nothing.

And they there was of course Gonars concentration camp in North Italiy (a lot of children in that one but meh who cares).

I particularly like the attacks on the Red Cross using bombers and machine guns (who attacks the red cross for Christs sake) during the Ethiopian war. For what crime? They were reporting that the Italians were using Mustard Gas on civilians.

There was some lovely stuff at Debre Libanos monastery as well, lovely stuff. 297 monks killed but who cares eh?

[Wolfman]

You've got maybe a few thousand people. Maybe we could bring out the actions of the USSR? Since they also killed people, I guess that means they were Fascists too. Since your whole argument seems to be "the nazis were Fascists because they nazis were Fascist" and "Mussolini was bad for his country because he killed a small percent of it's population" I don't see why we couldn't generalize that to calling the USSR Fascist too.

[Decky]

Since your whole argument seems to be "the nazis were Fascists because they nazis were Fascist"

Some things are that self evident yes.

"Mussolini was bad for his country because he killed a small percent of it's population"

Yes, you could also make the argument the USSR under Stalin was bad for the same reason. Many in fact do.

I don't know where you would get

Since they also killed people, I guess that means they were Fascists too.

[Wolfman]

Some things are that self evident yes.

Except for when calling a thing "self evident" contradicts it's definition.

Yes, you could also make the argument the USSR under Stalin was bad for the same reason. Many in fact do.

You're arguing that Musolini was stupid because he killed a small percent of his population, not that he was bad.

I don't know where you would get

The only attempt you've made at defining Fascism is in it's death toll. Thus, the USSR was Fascist.

[Decky]

You're arguing that Musolini was stupid because he killed a small percent of his population, not that he was bad.

There is nothing stupid about killing people if it accomplishes a goal. Killing people for no other reason that, oh my got it's a Jew/ Gypsy/ person who like a different band than I do etc is stupid and wasteful.

The only attempt you've made at defining Fascism is in it's death toll. Thus, the USSR was Fascist.

You are playing devils advocate, you are not stupid, you know that both Italy and Nazi Germany were fascist, I have no reason to play this game with you that is why.

I have already given you an example (the nights of long knives) when Hitler killed of all the prominent members of the Nazi party who could be considered anything close to Socialist so he could focus on the SS (the fascist ones) rather than the SA (the more socialist ones.)

[Wolfman]

There is nothing stupid about killing people if it accomplishes a goal. Killing people for no other reason that, oh my got it's a Jew/ Gypsy/ person who like a different band than I do etc is stupid and wasteful.

It did secure a goal: It helped Italy secure an alliance with Germany, which was a major player at the time. After Mussolini resigned Rab Internment Camp was basically closed, but the Italian government did what it could to prevent it's prisoners from being turned over the Germans. The Italian government only did what it did (in this regard) basically to get some support.

Also, you haven't shown how Mussolini was stupid, other than his foreign policy.

You are playing devils advocate, you are not stupid, you know that both Italy and Nazi Germany were fascist, I have no reason to play this game with you that is why.

I'm not playing devil's advocate because Nazi Germany was not Fascist. Dictatorial maybe, but not Fascist. Fascism is a specific combination of views, which Nazi Germany did not have. They were not Fascists.

[Decky]

It did secure a goal: It helped Italy secure an alliance with Germany

Sorry I mean a goal that helps. I mean if I wanted to throw myself off bridge it would be a "goal." That doesn't mean it would do me much good.

Also, you haven't shown how Mussolini was stupid, other than his foreign policy.

Foreign policy being a tiny unimportant thing in mid 1900s Europe. People who are dire at foreign policy can still be competent leaders after all look at Mussolini... oh no wait

[Wolfman]

Sorry I mean a goal that helps. I mean if I wanted to throw myself off bridge it would be a "goal." That doesn't mean it would do me much good.

At the time, Nazi Germany was a pretty damn powerful country. It would be like looking back at the tax increases on the colonies by the British leading up to the Revolution. Now it seems pretty stupid, but back then it seemed to make perfect sense.

Foreign policy being a tiny unimportant thing in mid 1900s Europe. People who are dire at foreign policy can still be competent leaders after all look at Mussolini... oh no wait

So, the only thing Mussolini did wrong was foreign policy. I'm glad we've established that.

[Preston Cole]

I'm not playing devil's advocate because Nazi Germany was not Fascist. Dictatorial maybe, but not Fascist. Fascism is a specific combination of views, which Nazi Germany did not have. They were not Fascists.

Nazism is a variant of fascism. It was a more unique movement because of the anti-Semitic and racial character of German nationalism, and it didn't seek to create a Corporate State like Italy, instead relying on class collaboration through its war against Marxism, but it was fascist nonetheless. All fascist movements differ depending on the nation's characteristics.

I have already given you an example (the nights of long knives) when Hitler killed of all the prominent members of the Nazi party who could be considered anything close to Socialist so he could focus on the SS (the fascist ones) rather than the SA (the more socialist ones.)

I'm sorry, how is the SS more fascist than the SA? You should revise your definition of fascism before coming here and throwing "destroy inferior races" as a component of fascist ideology. Drop the communist bullshit and sort your facts out.