[Kman]

The best way to get this 'I'm the lesser evil' type of deal is to mock your opponent and dig up (or just make) dirt. That requires money to hire PIs or the like, and money to get advertisements. You could probably get a Nazi elected in this country if he had the money to insult his opponents.

So if Hermann Goering was revived and given 10 billion dollars he would get elected?

[Wolfman]

He's attractive, male, from Northern or Western Europe, and a war hero. He might get elected on that alone, if not for the fact that he'd be 119 in the 2012 election.

[Kman]

He's attractive, male, from Northern or Western Europe, and a war hero. He might get elected on that alone, if not for the fact that he'd be 119 in the 2012 election.

And you think people would just gloss over his vicious anti-semitism?

Also I would not really call Goering ''attractive'' lol.

[Wolfman]

Humans, or atleast Americans, are incredibly stupid and short sighted. So, in a word: yes.

[Kman]

Humans, or atleast Americans, are incredibly stupid and short sighted. So, in a word: yes.

You make me lol.

[Wolfman]

I'm a misanthrope. I see very little difference between Herman Goering and the kid down the street from me.

[Potemkin]

So if Hermann Goering was revived and given 10 billion dollars he would get elected?

Actually, I believe he probably would. If he lost some weight and hit the gym a bit more, he would look physically presentable, as he did in his younger days. As for the anti-semitism thing, he once famously said that "some of my best friends are Jews". A clever advertising campaign could make something of that. An aggressive billboarding campaign with Hermann's handsomely Teutonic features beaming benignly down at us from every street corner with the words "Some of my best friends are Jews. Vote Goering 2016" or "Fighter Against Communism. Vote Goering 2016" written beneath could work wonders....

[Kman]

Actually, I believe he probably would. If he lost some weight and hit the gym a bit more, he would look physically presentable, as he did in his younger days. As for the anti-semitism thing, he once famously said that "some of my best friends are Jews". A clever advertising campaign could make something of that. An aggressive billboarding campaign with Hermann's handsomely Teutonic features beaming benignly down at us from every street corner with the words "Some of my best friends are Jews. Vote Goering 2016" or "Fighter Against Communism. Vote Goering 2016" written beneath could work wonders....

And you dont think word would get out that he wanted to deport/kill the jews of America? And that this might put a damper on his election hopes in modern day America?

[Potemkin]

And you dont think word would get out that he wanted to deport/kill the jews of America? And that this might put a damper on his election hopes in modern day America?

Goering was not one of the architects of the Holocaust, Kman. And some of his best friends really were Jews, at least until Himmler had them all deported and gassed. There's little basis for claiming that Goering would wish to engineer the Holocaust 2.0 if he were to be elected to power in modern America.

[Kman]

Goering was not one of the architects of the Holocaust, Kman. And some of his best friends really were Jews, at least until Himmler had them all deported and gassed. There's little basis for claiming that Goering would wish to engineer the Holocaust 2.0 if he were to be elected to power in modern America.

That is irrelevant, what we are talking about is a ''Nazi'' in the general term being elected in modern america, Wolfman is claiming that it can be done with enough money and I am saying that it cant, it is basicly an argument over whether people are controlled by advertisements or their own thinking patterns.

[Wolfman]

Why do you think companies spend huge sums of money every day in advertisements? Because they work. They really do change our behavior in ways we often don't realize.

[The Immortal Goon]

Trotsky's theory was bollocks because it was based on Marxism which was also bollocks. The idea that the Nazi's acted in the interests of the finance capitalists is as ridiculous as that the Bolsheviks acted in the interests of the Working class. If the Nazi state had survived longer you would have seen the further encroachment on the So called big bourgeoisie by the interests of Nazi bureaucrats like Himmler and Goering.

Again, there are no facts or even general theory to support this hypothesis. It's simply a conclusion arrived at in order to support a conclusion you wanted to get to in the first place - as is evident from the first sentence. Since it was written, it's become part of the standard interpretation of fascism by almost all historians - whether they know it or not.

In serious political conflict ideology is commonly far more important than economic self interest, but even when economic self interest prevails the state is a powerful autonomous force, it is never the hostage of some Marxist defined Class.

It's safe to assume you didn't read the notes linked in my original post, I assume.

The popular front was a dose of Marxism within bureaucratic madness.

--

Fixed.

The point being that even the Stalin and his crew, who defined fascism as opposition to Stalin, had to admit that their theory didn't work. Again, this is to their credit. They were not like some people that may have there presented no facts or even general theory to support this hypothesis. They did not simply find a conclusion arrived at in order to support a conclusion they wanted to get to in the first place. Since they came to see the value of Trotsky's analysis (though they didn't admit it, making it possible they came to a similar conclusion themselves), that analysis has become part of the standard interpretation of fascism by almost all historians - whether they know it or not.

[Tribbles]

So Trostky didnt like Stalinism, or fascism - or anything, and he and a bunch of other losers wrote the "fourth international"

But what did Trotsky want? It should be possible to sum it up in a short and easily understandable text - even if it just covers the basics.

Was it something like what Rosa Luxenburg wanted? Democracy and pinkish fluffy stuff? Why not just go and join some washed up social democracy-party and stay there? Perhaps join some glorious battle for oil and democracy and what not in Libya, or whatever. It seems to me, like that is what all those cozy feminist people are up to anyway.

I really feel that these folks should learn to appreciate totalitarianism when it comes served on a plate for them. Don't they realize how much hard work it takes to make it? Lenin and Stalin and Molotov and the rest working their asses off, and then Trotsky just quitting on them and screaming at them from exile.

And Trotsky advocated killing people and stealing their food during the civil war, so he should have been put in prison and investigated for crimes against humanity after he chickened out on Stalin.

[The Immortal Goon]

None of the ad hom debate above has anything to do with the topic, or even really a side topic. There are plenty of Stalin v. Trotsky threads that can be necroposted, should you desire.

[starman2003]

You could probably get a Nazi elected in this country if he had the money to insult his opponents.

Yeah right. The inordinate emphasis on holocaust remembrance is just one indication of how strong their antithesis is.

But as they left they blamed workers, and continue to blame workers. This is causing our society to suppress worker ambitions. Staying and beating the populace into cooperation makes it very obvious that they run the show, and we (the middle->lower classes) are the ones with no real authority in this society. By leaving and making it our fault, they make it so it seems like we're the repressing jack asses.

Well, higher US wages did make our products less competitive. If they really ran the show they'd have prevented higher wages not left.

Goering was not one of the architects of the Holocaust..

He wasn't in the SS but he was convicted at nuremberg of "crimes against humanity" not just "waging/planning aggressive war." Around June 1941 he said in effect to Heydrich to implement a "final/ total solution to the jewish question."

[Wolfman]

Yeah right. The inordinate emphasis on holocaust remembrance is just one indication of how strong their antithesis is.

I wasn't necessarily talking about a Nazi from Nazi Germany, but a modern Neo-Nazi. Like how a recent governor of Louisiana is a former member of the KKK, and a current US Senator (or is a Congressman, I don't remember) gave rallies at KKK meetings for a few decades.

Well, higher US wages did make our products less competitive. If they really ran the show they'd have prevented higher wages not left.

As I said, beating Americans into submission would have made it very obvious that they're repressive and run the show. This would have encouraged Communist movements (and for the period of time where the business owners were physically repressive that was happening, and is why Russia and a handful of other countries had strong Pro-Communist movements). Communism would destroy Capitalism, so the Capitalists couldn't have that, so they had to make concessions, like allowing for decent working conditions and decent wages. These small concessions added up over time until the recent years. At this point we've been so indoctrinated that Communism, Fascism, and other Anti-Capitalists ideologies are dangerous that we wouldn't as a culture come to that conclusion on our own. We'd be fairly happy to just role over and take it unless someone with a lot of money started talking about great Communism is. So, the Capitalists can throw their toys around, blame it on everyone else in the room, and walk out and no one is going to call them on their bull shit.

[starman2003]

I wasn't necessarily talking about a Nazi from Nazi Germany, but a modern Neo-Nazi. Like how a recent governor of Louisiana is a former member of the KKK, and a current US Senator (or is a Congressman, I don't remember) gave rallies at KKK meetings for a few decades.

Actually the KKK, while generally despised, is far from a nazi or fascist movement. The KKK favors "states rights" as opposed to a strong central government and noninterference by government e.g. no affirmative action. They also favor religion.

As I said, beating Americans into submission would have made it very obvious that they're repressive and run the show.

Maybe so, but it would've beat the alternative of running away--IF it were possible.

This would have encouraged Communist movements (and for the period of time where the business owners were physically repressive that was happening, and is why Russia and a handful of other countries had strong Pro-Communist movements). Communism would destroy Capitalism, so the Capitalists couldn't have that, so they had to make concessions, like allowing for decent working conditions and decent wages. These small concessions added up over time until the recent years. At this point we've been so indoctrinated that Communism, Fascism, and other Anti-Capitalists ideologies

But fascism isn't anti-capitalist in practice. The nazis put the workers in their place while profits increased.

[Wolfman]

The KKK favors "states rights" as opposed to a strong central government and noninterference by government e.g. no affirmative action.

They also support murdering racial minorities and taking away the rights of women. The only difference is Neo-Nazis beat off to the thought of Hitler.

Maybe so, but it would've beat the alternative of running away--IF it were possible.

Encouraging the development of Communism to the point of a workers revolution would have been better for the owning class then still making a killing, but overseas?

But fascism isn't anti-capitalist in practice. The nazis put the workers in their place while profits increased.

Corporatism is fairly Anti-Capitalist, wouldn't you say?

[Tribbles]

Corporatism is fairly Anti-Capitalist, wouldn't you say?

I prefer to think of it as an evolutionary improvement of capitalism.

[starman2003]

They also support murdering racial minorities

More like just keeping them down, like in the "good old days" before emancipation, and even that would've varied with the discretion of individual businessmen and others. I'm not aware of any KKK plan for systematic genocide.

and taking away the rights of women. The only difference is Neo-Nazis beat off to the thought of Hitler.

The KKK was practically antithetical to fascism since it was against statism. It favored what Americans traditionally always have--religion and local control--even if it was unusual in its trappings and extreme in its methods.

Encouraging the development of Communism to the point of a workers revolution would have been better for the owning class then still making a killing, but overseas?

Had they really been dominant, they could've kept the proles suppressed, just like the nazis did. There's no workers revolution in the nondemocratic societies where manufacturing has gone.

Corporatism is fairly Anti-Capitalist, wouldn't you say?

From what I've heard, in practice the capitalists fared very well under fascism.

Oh btw, in today's paper I read that 98% of the $70 million raised by Obama came from donations of $250 or less.