[Ombrageux]

How do the Fascists here feel about Viktor Orbán? His seems to be the only genuinely right-wing, authoritarian government in Europe. It seems downright Pétainist to me.

Characteristics of Orbán's Hungary:
* Euroscepticism, comparing the EU to the Soviet Union
* Reinforced control of media
* Removal of "Republic" from the country's official name, celebration of monarchism and Catholicism (Constitution begins "God Bless the Hungarians"...)
* Para-military groups and oppression of Roma, work camps
* A new Constitution: Outlawing abortion, gay marriage
* Abrogation of central bank independence, since reneged under intense EU pressure

[Preston Cole]

As a Romanian, I'll refrain from expressing my sincere views on Hungarian nationalism on a public forum.

But Orban's built up a pretty neat system. It seems as close as one could get to full-fledged nationalism in an EU state; the next obvious step would be dismantling multi-partyism.

An additional reason for states directly threatened by Hungarian neo-expansionism to build authoritarian-nationalist systems, too.

[Far-Right Sage]

Yes, I have somewhat followed and have much respect for the gradual shift in Hungary. It can perhaps be considered Francoism with a more democratic facade as a result of contemporary circumstances.

What would be interesting is to observe the change in rural Hungary, among the villages having qualms with the Gypsy migrants and such. Is the government channeling them or limiting the full potential of the Hungarian conservative-revolutionary zeal in the countryside?

[Dave]

Honestly, I don't know enough about Orban to comment in a meaningful way. I am not a true fascist and have simply fallen into the camp as a result of my opposition to social progressivism, and in reality I think multiparty represenative government and the rule of law are good things. That said, in these dark times I see the advantage of authoritarian government to combat the global plague of liberalism. Controlling the media is also useful in this sense as the media today is full of liberals. But from what I know of Orban, I'm less convinced this is his aim and feel more that he simply wishes to institutionalize himself for personal gain.

But I will say this: the gypsies are a serious problem in Central and Eastern Europe and need to be opposed. Good for Orban for doing this.

[Section Leader]

Orban is a patriotic authoritarian conservative, much like Franco or Salazar, not exactly fascist, but a man who should be supported.

His policy on the unemployed is something I especially approve of.

[Old_Hat]

Orban is a patriotic authoritarian conservative, much like Franco or Salazar, not exactly fascist, but a man who should be supported.

His policy on the unemployed is something I especially approve of.

What is his policy on unemployment?

[Section Leader]

What is his policy on unemployment?

The unemployed are made to work if they can't find a job after 90 days.

[Jackal]

I think Viktor Orban is a positive figure who working within the framework of illeberal democracy, a system I support. I am currently posting from my diabolical mobile phone so I can/will give a more detailed response at a later time.

Section Leader, do you have any sources for his unemployment policy? Your answer was vague but it still peaked my interest into how Orban's policy works.

[J Oswald]

Jackal: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/in ... 82011.html

This is not a source sympathetic to Orban, but what it says seems accurate enough.

Under the new law, jobless benefits will be cut off after 90 days, down from nine months, and eligibility for other welfare payouts will be curtailed. People taken off the dole are being offered jobs paying $303 a month, twice the basic welfare payment but less than the standard $415 minimum wage. Those who refuse will receive no government aid.

If Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has his way, hundreds of thousands of Hungarians will soon join similar squads. Under a plan approved by Parliament in July, by 2012 some 300,000 people will be working in community service jobs—doing everything from picking up trash to building stadiums—instead of drawing welfare or unemployment benefits. Hungary will no longer “give benefits to those capable of work, when there is much work to be done,” Orbán said in June.

[Preston Cole]

The tone of that article reeks of "how dare that fascist touch those poor jobless people." Sickening even for a liberal site.

[Potemkin]

Hungary will no longer “give benefits to those capable of work, when there is much work to be done,” Orbán said in June.

"Those who do not work, do not eat." - Joseph Stalin

[Jackal]

A very nice policy. Anyone have any clue as to how well it is working?

[Decky]

"Those who do not work, do not eat." - Joseph Stalin

I thought it was Lenin?

[starman2003]

I thought it was Lenin?

I thought it was John Smith.

[Zenno]

I thought it was Lenin?

I thought it was John Smith.

You are all wrong! It was the 8th century Chinese monk Po-chang Hui-hai. As he kept on working in the fields even at the ripe age of 80, his pupils decided to hide his hoe because they thought that he shouldn’t be working so hard at his age. Upon realizing that he was being prevented from working, he decided to stop eating because in his view those who don’t work should not eat. The standoff between master and pupils lasted three days in which he didn’t touch any food. After that, the pupils admitted defeat and returned his hoe to him.

[Potemkin]

I thought it was Lenin?

It's a fundamental principle of socialism (though not of Communism, btw - the rule only applies during the intermediate period of the dictatorship of the proletariat). However, the slogan became ubiquitous in Soviet society during Stalin's rule in the 1930s, and is therefore most closely associated with him. It's also a fundamental principle of many of the world's major religions, as Zenno has pointed out. Parasitism and rentierism are usually frowned upon in most cultures; this is an attitude shared by both the Left and the Right, and in fact by most cultures throughout history. It's only the present liberal capitalist system which glorifies rentiers and parasites; as Marx pointed out, the essential character of modern capitalism is hucksterism. The results of this attitude are now becoming painfully obvious.

[Ombrageux]

It's only the present liberal capitalist system which glorifies rentiers and parasites; as Marx pointed out, the essential character of modern capitalism is hucksterism.

Did he actually use that term? And where does he elaborate on the concept?

[Potemkin]

Did he actually use that term? And where does he elaborate on the concept?

Yes, in his essay On the Jewish Question:

What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.

Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time.

An organization of society which would abolish the preconditions for huckstering, and therefore the possibility of huckstering, would make the Jew impossible. His religious consciousness would be dissipated like a thin haze in the real, vital air of society. On the other hand, if the Jew recognizes that this practical nature of his is futile and works to abolish it, he extricates himself from his previous development and works for human emancipation as such and turns against the supreme practical expression of human self-estrangement.

We recognize in Judaism, therefore, a general anti-social element of the present time, an element which through historical development – to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed – has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily begin to disintegrate.

[...]

Judaism reaches its highest point with the perfection of civil society, but it is only in the Christian world that civil society attains perfection. Only under the dominance of Christianity, which makes all national, natural, moral, and theoretical conditions extrinsic to man, could civil society separate itself completely from the life of the state, sever all the species-ties of man, put egoism and selfish need in the place of these species-ties, and dissolve the human world into a world of atomistic individuals who are inimically opposed to one another.

Christianity sprang from Judaism. It has merged again in Judaism.

[...]

Once society has succeeded in abolishing the empirical essence of Judaism – huckstering and its preconditions – the Jew will have become impossible, because his consciousness no longer has an object, because the subjective basis of Judaism, practical need, has been humanized, and because the conflict between man’s individual-sensuous existence and his species-existence has been abolished.

The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism.

[Daktoria]

It would have been nice if Marx actually referred to scripture rather than practical anecdotes.

That way, there's ideological problematic thinking to criticize Judaism over, not simply anti-Semitism.

[Potemkin]

It would have been nice if Marx actually referred to scripture rather than practical anecdotes.

Marx was interested in analysng the practical aspects of Judaism (and Christianity) rather than the idealised religious self-identity of the Jews. As he himself explicitly said: "Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew." This is, of course, an historical materialist analysis of the Jewish question.

That way, there's ideological problematic thinking to criticize Judaism over, not simply anti-Semitism.

But Marx's point was that the problematic ideological thinking was and is merely the idealised figleaf covering the real, practical essence of the Jews, their being-in-the-world to use a Heideggerian expression. If you confine yourself only to the ideological realm, then you fundamentally miss the point.