Should africans be fascist - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14323034
Ethiopian monarchist wrote:Do you have a better idea to unite the African Diaspora under one roof


I've already explained why a pan-African state is a very bad idea.

Ethiopian monarchist wrote:to stop the genocide


Which specific ongoing genocide are you referring to?
#14323106
It need not necessarily be fascist (although fascists, including myself, would of course approve of this - at the same time we are not pie-in-the-sky impractical internationalists and recognize the specific historic and evolutionary-genetic circumstances and inclinations of different national groups), but Africa does definitely need more leaders like Siad Barre, Kwame Nkrumah, Ahmed Sékou Touré, and even Idi Amin (for some of his faults). I would even go as far as to say that Modibo Keïta of Mali, despite his lean toward Marxian socialism, was a great leader for the African masses and did not shy away from acting on strong principles rooted in Pan-Africanism. Today this torch has all but been extinguished and it is the reason the Africans are in political darkness (the staggeringly poor material conditions aside). Why was the last and most energetic banner of Pan-Africanism held by an Arab who did more for Sub-Saharan Africa than they have been doing for themselves?

Haile Selassie was also an inspiring figure who has earned his place in Ethiopian history and lore, so it is understandable why today's Ethiopian nationalists identify with him so, but the monarchy, like many others, eventually became decadent and outlived its usefulness. I wouldn't hold fleeing from the Italian fascists against him, as no country on the continent would have been capable of resisting that.

On a side note, if you are interested in what I think an African interpretation of fascism in doctrine (but not in practice) would look like, I think Mobutu Sese Seko's of the former Zaire (today's Democratic Republic of the Congo) Authenticité is worth looking into. Unfortunately, Mobutu channeled this anti-colonial nationalism and sympathies for those who would be sympathetic to a variant of fascism among the Congolese into a state which he increasingly allowed to become a puppet of U.S. and Western European policy in Africa in the context of the Cold War and abused what was a noteworthy and rather organic ideology for the far-right in Africa by transforming the Congolese state into an increasingly corrupt kleptocracy with wanton abuses.
#14323203
It has, although some with a pretty blatant agenda use the destruction by other powers (materially stronger powers) in a war as a sign or evidence that fascism "didn't work". It's akin to arguing Ba'athism didn't work domestically in Iraq because the country was invaded and leveled by a materially stronger power, or that monarchy didn't work in Ethiopia because it was overthrown or because Italy invaded and occupied/colonized the country. What does that have to do with it working domestically or your flawed opinion of it?

Most fascists, older and younger generations, don't take away from the war "Oh, it didn't work and the domestic policies were bad or wrong". They understand the flow of history and the message received is "Try harder next time".
#14323210
What is to prove when you make zero argument, as per usual, beyond snarky one-liners and word games devoid of facts?
#14323229
Far-Right Sage wrote:What is to prove when you make zero argument, as per usual, beyond snarky one-liners and word games devoid of facts?


I made a testable clam:

That fascist nations have not succeeded in the past, and since they have not succeeded, there is no reason to believe that yet another experiment with fascism will succeed.

It is possible to rebut this argument: you can provide an example of a fascist nation that did succeed.

Or you can explain what is so special about Africa that the flaws in every other fascist nation will not reappear in the African attempt. Do you think that Africa is in a position to "try harder next time"?

So, claiming I made "zero argument" is obviously incorrect. I have also demonstrated how my argument could be shown to be wrong, and I think we can agree that it has not been shown to be wrong. Your move.
#14323266
What are you claiming that fascist states did not "succeed" at? Surviving a global conflict?
#14323273
Far-Right Sage wrote:What are you claiming that fascist states did not "succeed" at? Surviving a global conflict?


Providing basic necessities for their people. See below.

Fasces wrote:You did not provide a definition for "succeed" which makes your claim un falsifiable. Provide a quantitative definition for a successful society, PoD.


One that has enough resources to adequately feed its people, adequately provide some sort of health network even if it is private, and does not kill its own citizens en masse.
#14323276
You still haven't provided a quantitative standard that can be measured, so your claim is still un falsifiable.

Enough to feed its people - does that mean no famines during the years of the regime? No deaths from starvation? Minimum calorie ration per capita?

Adequately provide health coverage - the existence of a social security program? What does social security program mean? What is minimum coverage % for "adequate"?

Does not kill its citizens in masse - no death penalty, or no Holocaust? Does a civil war count? What do you mean by citizen - in Nazi Germany, for example, the Jews and other undesirables were stripped of their citizenship prior to the death camps (and even then, most were Polish in 1938, not German).

What time frame? From start to finish of the regime? Ten years? Five?
#14323278
Fasces wrote:You still haven't provided a quantitative standard that can be measured, so your claim is still un falsifiable.

Enough to feed its people - does that mean no famines during the years of the regime? No deaths from starvation? Minimum calorie ration per capita?

Adequately provide health coverage - the existence of a social security program? What does social security program mean? What is minimum coverage % for "adequate"?

Does not kill its citizens in masse - no death penalty, or no Holocaust? Does a civil war count?

What time frame? From start to finish of the regime? Ten years? Five?


Do you have a specific example in mind of a regime that actually managed to not completely fail at these things?

Can you think of one that has achieved as much as, let's say, Cuba?
#14323283
I don't know what you mean by "failed at those things" so I cannot answer.

If you weren't in the habit of moving the goalposts, by my perception, whenever these discussions begin, I'd offer a few examples.

As it is, I'd rather you be specific so as to avoid any misunderstanding.

Of course, this may open you to being shown that your claim was false, and you'd never be able to say that "fascism always fails" because you will have admitted that by your own standards, it does not - I can understand the hesitancy, in that respect.

When you define the metric of measurement for "success" or "achieved as much as Cuba" in a quantitative way, I will do some research on my mental short-list and get back to you.
Last edited by Fasces on 31 Oct 2013 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
#14323284
The NSDAP didn't fail by any measure to deliver health and prosperity to the people through better working conditions, the virtual elimination of unemployment, the overhaul and revolutionary renovation of infrastructure, ensuring basic neccessities of life, liberating stolen land, purging foreign influences from the land, eliminating the most rigid class barriers, and ensuring state assistance to large families. Among a plethora of other factors. I'm never quite sure where you get your assertions.
#14323290
Fasces wrote:I don't know what you mean by "failed at those things" so I cannot answer.

If you weren't in the habit of moving the goalposts, by my perception, whenever these discussions begin, I'd offer a few examples.

As it is, I'd rather you be specific so as to avoid any misunderstanding.

Of course, this may open you to being shown that your claim was false, and you'd never be able to say that "fascism always fails" because you will have admitted that by your own standards, it does not - I can understand the hesitancy, in that respect.

When you define the metric of measurement for "success" or "achieved as much as Cuba" in a quantitative way, I will do some research on my mental short-list and get back to you.


Yeah, I couldn't think of one either.

Far-Right Sage wrote:The NSDAP didn't fail by any measure to deliver health and prosperity to the people through better working conditions, the virtual elimination of unemployment, the overhaul and revolutionary renovation of infrastructure, ensuring basic necessities of life, liberating stolen land, purging foreign influences from the land, eliminating the most rigid class barriers, and ensuring state assistance to large families. Among a plethora of other factors. I'm never quite sure where you get your assertions.


And how well did Germany end up after the Nazis were in power? Oh yeah, Germany was divided into two by occupying powers, and all the Nazis had to show for it was mass graves of their own people. Well done, Nazism.

By the way, do you consider the Nazis as fascist?
#14323298
Far-Right Sage wrote:What are you claiming that fascist states did not "succeed" at? Surviving a global conflict?


Hence why I wrote this very line.

It's not worth wasting my own time as long as you hold that any system brought down by war or revolution or civil conflict, as all eventually have been throughout history, therefore didn't "succeed" and isn't worth consideinng, as if it has anything to do with accomplishments and quality of life conditions within that particular state.

You are using the fact that the war was lost (and all the consequences which stemmed from that such as occupation) as a ridiculous argument for why you believe fascism "didn't succeed" domestically in Germany. It succeeded with flying colors, wellness, and mass popularity.
#14323318
Fasces wrote:

Precisely why you're a terrible person to have a debate with.


Yes, people do not like the fact that I do not construct their arguments for them.

Far-Right Sage wrote:Hence why I wrote this very line.

It's not worth wasting my own time as long as you hold that any system brought down by war or revolution or civil conflict, as all eventually have been throughout history, therefore didn't "succeed" and isn't worth consideinng, as if it has anything to do with accomplishments and quality of life conditions within that particular state.


Maybe the Nazis should not have started those wars then.

You are using the fact that the war was lost (and all the consequences which stemmed from that such as occupation) as a ridiculous argument for why you believe fascism "didn't succeed" domestically in Germany. It succeeded with flying colors, wellness, and mass popularity.


Please provide evidence for this claim. Thank you.
#14323322
Yes, people do not like the fact that I do not construct their arguments for them.


You haven't made a claim. You have failed to define your terms.

What a joke. If you actually want to have a discussion, define what you mean by "success".
#14323330
Fasces wrote:You haven't made a claim.


Yes, I have.

You have failed to define your terms.


I have, just not to your rather oddly high standards.

Fasces wrote:What a joke. If you actually want to have a discussion, define what you mean by "success".


Let's face it, the closest thing you have is the Nazis, and the Nazis failed because they couldn't help themselves when it came to invading peaceful countries and killing all their non-Aryans.

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