Was Julius Evola A Fascist? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14439023
Potemkin wrote:And one of his bodyguards claimed to have witnessed him, during the Great Patriotic War, kneeling before an ikon of the Holy Mother, and crossing himself.


Maybe drunk or in despair and grasping at straws during a particularly dark moment? Stalin seemed in shock and uncommunicative during the first days of the war. Maybe psychological strain made him revert to his past momentarily.

He was convinced that Stalin was a believer.


Actual policy (under more favorable circumstances) suggests otherwise. He sure made short work of some holy joe edifice in Moscow.

Furthermore, Stalin gave orders during the Siege of Leningrad to have a miracle-working ikon of the Holy Mother and Child carried in procession around the perimeter of the city, to call upon the protection of the Lord of Hosts against the forces of evil. It seemed to work, too....


At bolstering morale among ordinary religious types. They were desperate to rally the Russians during the German invasion. IIRC they even had church bells on the radio. It was just a tactical move of course.
#14439038
Maybe drunk or in despair and grasping at straws during a particularly dark moment?

Stalin almost never got drunk. He had regular drinking sessions at the Kremlin to get his subordinates drunk, so he could get an insight into what they were really thinking, on the principle of 'in vino veritas'. Stalin himself, however, was always careful to remain sober.

Stalin seemed in shock and uncommunicative during the first days of the war. Maybe psychological strain made him revert to his past momentarily.

Of course, it's impossible to know what was in Stalin's mind at such moments. I am merely reporting what one of Stalin's bodyguards (who one presumes would have known him rather well) thought at the time.

He was convinced that Stalin was a believer.

Actual policy (under more favorable circumstances) suggests otherwise. He sure made short work of some holy joe edifice in Moscow.

The 20 tons of gold on the roof of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour were required to help fund the industrialisation if the Soviet Union, without which Hitler's Wehrmacht would have reduced the whole of Russia to rubble. Hitler planned to flood Moscow and turn the entire city into a giant inland lake. Sacrificing one cathedral to stop that was a small price to pay.

Furthermore, Stalin gave orders during the Siege of Leningrad to have a miracle-working ikon of the Holy Mother and Child carried in procession around the perimeter of the city, to call upon the protection of the Lord of Hosts against the forces of evil. It seemed to work, too....

At bolstering morale among ordinary religious types. They were desperate to rally the Russians during the German invasion. IIRC they even had church bells on the radio. It was just a tactical move of course.

Indeed, but isn't the same true of the religious endorsement of monarchy in medieval Europe? When the Pope crowned Charlemagne the 'Holy Roman Emperor' in 800 AD, wasn't that a "tactical move"?
#14439494
Potemkin wrote:The 20 tons of gold on the roof of the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour were required to help fund the industrialisation if the Soviet Union, without which Hitler's Wehrmacht would have reduced the whole of Russia to rubble. Hitler planned to flood Moscow and turn the entire city into a giant inland lake. Sacrificing one cathedral to stop that was a small price to pay.


Was it necessary to destroy the whole cathedral to get gold from the roof? Seems the soviets killed two birds with one stone.
#14439498
Potemkin wrote:Precisely. In Britain, hardcore supporters of the monarchy talk about the "mystique" of monarchy. This is what they mean - the monarch is human, and yet also and simultaneously more than human. This is the sacral aspect of kingship, and without it the monarch would be no more than a glorified petty warlord or politician. You may as well just call him 'Mr. President'. There is hope for you yet, taxizen - most so-called 'monarchists' don't even understand the symbolic origins of the crown; at least you understand that much.

Quite, and if I may use some scientific analogies, this "mystique" could otherwise be called magnetism. It is well understood that the physical universe is fundamentally entropic, tending to disorder. The magnetic polarity of iron particles, for instance, tend over time to orientate in random directions which results in a low to non-existant coherant magnetic field for the mass of the particles, until struck by a powerful magnetic field which causes all the particles to align themselves with the powerful magnetic field such that they become more ordered or negentropic and as such magnetically radiant themselves as each particles own small magnetic field supports rather than detracts from the magnetic field of he whole.
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If the physical world tends to entropy perhaps we might speculate that the spiritual world tends to its opposite negentropy. The radiant order that a monarchy can impose on human social entropy, like a magnetic force on iron particles, is through acting as a channel for the negentropy of the spirit world.
#14439507
If the physical world tends to entropy perhaps we might speculate that the spiritual world tends to its opposite negentropy. The radiant order that a monarchy can impose on human social entropy, like a magnetic force on iron particles, is through acting as a channel for the negentropy of the spirit world.

Once again....

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#14439579
taxizen wrote:Quite, and if I may use some scientific analogies, this "mystique" could otherwise be called magnetism. It is well understood that the physical universe is fundamentally entropic, tending to disorder. The magnetic polarity of iron particles, for instance, tend over time to orientate in random directions which results in a low to non-existant coherant magnetic field for the mass of the particles, until struck by a powerful magnetic field which causes all the particles to align themselves with the powerful magnetic field such that they become more ordered or negentropic and as such magnetically radiant themselves as each particles own small magnetic field supports rather than detracts from the magnetic field of he whole.
Image
If the physical world tends to entropy perhaps we might speculate that the spiritual world tends to its opposite negentropy. The radiant order that a monarchy can impose on human social entropy, like a magnetic force on iron particles, is through acting as a channel for the negentropy of the spirit world.


Yes, and for the true Christian, that Monarch is the God-Man Jesus Christ, the Living Link via the Incarnation between the Social Love that is the Essence of the Holy Trinity, and Mankind.
#14439581
Potemkin wrote:Once again....



Following from this I must discard the last remnants of my libertarianism. The point of my life now is not liberty, it is sanctity. The chivalric order that will usher in the new sacred monarchy will thus need to be more appropriately named. I propose that the Chivalric Order of Liberty should be changed to the Chivalric Order of the Sun Wheel. The sun is the divine light, the wheel is the world. The Sun Wheel then is the manifestation of the sacred light in the physical world. Funnily enough the Sun Wheel is already part of the heraldry of the order... Do you have any opinion on this?

Also I would like to extend an invitation to you to join the Chivalric Order of the Sun Wheel as an initiate. In the light of your conversation in this thread on the possible hidden divine devotion of Stalin, you could have Stalin as your personal patron saint. I have no objection to that. What say you?
#14439656
Evola was actually, as we like to say "to the right" of most variants of fascism; he was not a fascist, but an intellectual gadfly who sought to steer the fascist-driven national revolutions in Europe in a more traditionalist direction. He simply saw Mussolini's state and the National Fascist Party in Italy as the best possible alternative to advance his own ideology which was essentially what has come to be referred to as Radical Traditionalism. He could not at all be defined as a reactionary in the post-Enlightenment sense of the term as he sought a return to the pre-Christian spiritual tradition in European life. He was vigorously opposed to any of the Catholic-inspired strains of clerical-fascism as existed to varying degrees in Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Tiso's Slovakia, Pavelic's Croatia, Dollfuss' Austria, and Horthy's Hungary Christianizing what he saw as the essence of the pagan element inherent within fascism. Thus at home in Italian politics he opposed Mussolni's concordat with the Vatican and the protection of the Roman Catholic Church's established position in Italian society, and increasingly as the war went on became disenchanted with Mussolini (as many fascist intellectuals did for one reason or another given Italy's lackluster military progress) and looked more to Himmler and the SS as inspirations given their own deep-rooted interest in Germanic neopaganism and the de-Judaization of Christianity as a transitional prelude to the de-Christianization of Germany.

Evola favored hierarchy and in many respects criticized fascism from the right and saw it as too akin to communism in its populism and appeal to the masses and the proletariat. He didn't believe in the establishment of the totalitarian state as effected in Italy and Germany in a manner which penetrated all classes and societal branches, but in a revolution led "from above". In addition, while something of a racialist in the sense that he didn't want to see Italy or Europe mongrelized, he didn't believe in biological determinism so much as in a spiritual consideration of race, emphasizing the original term Aryan derives from, ārya, which is Sanskrit for noble and could be applied to the attributes of various races. This was also a position however which many German fascists, and even more Italian fascists, actually agreed with.

I totally disagree with the characterization of the Japanese variant of fascism or right-socialism professed by the Taisei Yokusankai and figures such as Tojo, Hashimoto, Araki, and Nakano in Imperial Japan as closer to "communism" than European fascism was. If anything, it was further to the right given its overt religious direction and support for the monarchy's role in national life, both of which were contested ideas and not at all universally agreed upon in either Italian or German strains of fascism, to give an example.
#14439667
Also I would like to extend an invitation to you to join the Chivalric Order of the Sun Wheel as an initiate. In the light of your conversation in this thread on the possible hidden divine devotion of Stalin, you could have Stalin as your personal patron saint. I have no objection to that. What say you?

Can I still take the title 'Most Worthy and Noble Chevalier of the Order of Saint Stalin'? Ooh ooh, and can I still have an icepick against a field of red on my coat of arms? Can I? Can I?
#14439679
Potemkin wrote:Can I still take the title 'Most Worthy and Noble Chevalier of the Order of Saint Stalin'? Ooh ooh, and can I still have an icepick against a field of red on my coat of arms? Can I? Can I?

ever the comedian If you were of the "Order of Saint Stalin" then you would be of some other order not this one, so that doesn't make any sense. One is not a chevalier until knighted which doesn't happen until one has proven oneself in some way. What is an honour worth if one does nothing for it?

When we have enough serious people, as well as one or two comedians, I think we should be buy something like this for our first chapterhouse.

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Tuscan Convent for sale
#14439687
When we have enough serious people, as well as one or two comedians, I think we should be buy something like this for our first chapterhouse.

An excellent base of operations for our coming Crusade against the Trotskyite scum who currently control American foreign policy....
#14439815
Potemkin wrote:An excellent base of operations for our coming Crusade against the Trotskyite scum who currently control American foreign policy....



And our special weapon; icepicks....

But seriously, it really does appear as if the so-called 'Fourth International' is calling alot of the shots in D.C.
#14439949
taxizen wrote:perhaps we might speculate that the spiritual world tends to its opposite negentropy.


What "spirit world"? It's all in your head.

God-Man Jesus Christ


Ehrman has been making short work of that nonsense, or rather, publicizing its rejection by scholars.
#14440003
potemkin wrote:An excellent base of operations for our coming Crusade against the Trotskyite scum who currently control American foreign policy....

annatar1914 wrote:But seriously, it really does appear as if the so-called 'Fourth International' is calling alot of the shots in D.C.

Its progressivism that is calling the shots in D.C. Trotskyism and the Fourth International were manifestations of progressivism as is French Jacobinism, British Whiggery and Chinese Maoism. All different strains of the same virus.
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starman wrote:What "spirit world"? It's all in your head.

Not only in my head. Roughly 90% of people on the planet are some kind of theist.
If truth was democratic atheism would never get elected.
#14440102
starman2003 wrote:
Ehrman has been making short work of that nonsense, or rather, publicizing its rejection by scholars.


You must be bored by now being such a troll. I actually refuse to think you're an atheist, because when I was, me and my atheist friends didn't even think enough of theists to waste the time you seem to have on them. You seem to have an intellect, and being an alleged atheist even some strength of mind, but as Blaise Pascal once said "Atheism; strength of mind, but only so far".

Ehrman himself is such an absurd case of naturalist confirmation bias it's not even funny. At any rate, considering the nature of this thread being about Julius Evola and whether or not he was a real Fascist, I think you've appropriately shit on a shit thread. Evola was an Esotericist who in and even with his unbelief was far deeper a thinker than you or Ehrman could ever hope to be-even infected with Schopenhauer and Neitzsche as he was.
#14440523
taxizen wrote:Not only in my head. Roughly 90% of people on the planet are some kind of theist.


Sooooo what?! Where people are best educated notably in Europe, atheism is much more prevalent. And talk about deep thinkers--a poll cited in FREE INQUIRY indicates 90% of top scientists reject the "god" myth. That would've included Einstein as a letter of his indicates.
#14446572
starman2003 wrote:Sooooo what?! Where people are best educated notably in Europe, atheism is much more prevalent. And talk about deep thinkers--a poll cited in FREE INQUIRY indicates 90% of top scientists reject the "god" myth. That would've included Einstein as a letter of his indicates.

So they have been educated to be atheists, and this proves what? 300 years ago the best educated people in Europe were educated to be theists. Atheism is an intellectual fad.
#14446782
taxizen wrote:So they have been educated to be atheists, and this proves what? 300 years ago the best educated people in Europe were educated to be theists.


No comparison. There is no highly organized atheist movement, comparable to the church. As Greg Paul pointed out in a FREE INQUIRY article some time ago, atheism has made great strides despite lack of much organized effort to promote it--certainly nothing comparable to holy joe prosyletizing. The very fact that christianity was practically universal in western countries until fairly recently shows that atheism did not spread due to people being educated to accept it. Atheism is the fruit of increasing knowledge and progress. I was raised christian but repudiated that trash.

Atheism is an intellectual fad.


It stems from increased scientific knowledge making the "creator god" superfluous and from increasing human capability.
#14447927
I'm not sure if there's any difference between the 'atheist movement' and middle class individualism.
#14447968
starman2003 wrote: No comparison. There is no highly organized atheist movement, comparable to the church. As Greg Paul pointed out in a FREE INQUIRY article some time ago, atheism has made great strides despite lack of much organized effort to promote it--certainly nothing comparable to holy joe prosyletizing. The very fact that christianity was practically universal in western countries until fairly recently shows that atheism did not spread due to people being educated to accept it. Atheism is the fruit of increasing knowledge and progress. I was raised christian but repudiated that trash.

It is quite odd, even spooky, that atheists seem unable to recognise their own massive indoctrination programs for what they are. The Church does it fairly overtly, they know they are doing it and think they should do it. Atheists have this weird blind spot: like the church they proselytise overtly and they think they should do it but at the same time seem totally in denial or unaware that they are doing it. It's a bit fucked up to honest.

An example in 1869 in the UK the National Education League lobbied parliament for:
Matters began to move forward, however, in 1869 when the recently formed National Education League began its campaign for free, compulsory and non-religious education for all children.


Various groups with a openly atheist agenda have incrementally lobbied government over the following century for ever more anti-religious provision in the indoctrination (oops I mean education of course ) to point where in compulsory education religion especially Christianity it is entirely absent and / or mocked.

In fairness indoctrination of the young is a standard tactic in propagating an ideology so it would be weird if atheists were not doing it, and if one is an atheist then it is readily credible that they should think that they ought to do that because it is typical for people to believe that their beliefs are right and that everyone else should hold those beliefs too. That much I find uncontroversial, its just odd that over and over atheists deny they, or any of their ilk, are doing it and on a substantial scale too. It doesn't say much for atheist's intellectual honesty or their much trumpeted rigorous rationality.
starman2003 wrote:It stems from increased scientific knowledge making the "creator god" superfluous and from increasing human capability.

That's a narrative I have heard before but I don't buy it. The great rise in atheism occurred in countries where atheist teaching was propagated on a massive scale through compulsory, totally tax subsidised universal education. What religious institution using voluntary, fee or donation funded education could compete with that? Atheism scored because it managed to buy or otherwise win the backing of the state. Atheism is defacto state religion for many countries.
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