Marine Le Pen - A Fascist? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#14400925
If you use fascist as derogative way of referring to any sort of anti-immigration right wingers, yes. In the actual historical sense of fascism, no. I doubt that a self-described fascist would name Le Pen as a a great example of modern far right ideology.
#14400943
I haven't followed them too closely so someone correct me if I'm wrong (Ombrageux?), but I think they do not renounce the historic democratic heritage of France.

Then no, is my guess.

Roger Griffin applied to FN the concept of "apartheid liberalism", meaning such ideology that retains the basic set of individual rights, yet extends them only along certain ethnic lines.
#14400947
Orestes wrote:Roger Griffin applied to FN the concept of "apartheid liberalism", meaning such ideology that retains the basic set of individual rights, but extends them only along certain ethnic lines.

In other words, the FN want to turn back to pre-war European liberalism with social conservatism.

I am interested in her overseas department policy, given the fact that they are part of France yet populated mostly by non-whites. I wonder if the freedom of movement would be curtailed and most deported back there, leaving a small overseas non-white population? That's assuming she goes further than merely stopping immigration.

This is mainly for Ombrageux to answer though others are welcome to do so.
#14400955
Quantum wrote:In other words, the FN want to turn back to pre-war European liberalism with social conservatism.


Exactly

I'm not sure about where Marine stands on the economy at this point, but I also seem to remember that the elder Le Pen was in fact quite the Neo-Liberal back in the day.
#14497357
Andrea_Chenier wrote:If you use fascist as derogative way of referring to any sort of anti-immigration right wingers, yes. In the actual historical sense of fascism, no. I doubt that a self-described fascist would name Le Pen as a a great example of modern far right ideology.


To describe as fascist an anti-immigration party should be abolished and a criminal offence as its idiocy and populist.
Let's not forget anti-immigration is a traditional left wing European theme which only became right wing in the 80s.

As for the Front National?
Its identical to the UMP (centre right) but more traditional and obviously wants more restraints on immigration.
So I would describe it as centre right and the UMP & PS as virtually identical (centre).

I would consider the American Republican party as far right compared to the Front National.
#14497365
ImperialSun wrote:Let's not forget anti-immigration is a traditional left wing European theme which only became right wing in the 80s.


The far right supported immigration before the 1980s? I find that quite hard to believe. Perhaps that was only in France?
#14497510
The right wing in Europe was usually pro-Empire and pro capitalist (bourgeois class) which meant freedom of labor movement.
The left wing (the communists I mean) were anti-immigration because they wanted to protect the local worker from foreign labor.
Immigration was and still is a weapon of the capitalist class to destabilize the proletariat wage.

After WW2 there was massive influx of natives from French colonies to France and the people who opposed this were the communists.
The Front National did not initially oppose it and ran along a line of pro Empire (Keep French Algeria & Indochina, etc).

Its only after the loss of French colonies and pretty much the end of 20th century politics that the left became pro immigration and the right anti immigration.

Politics basically back then meant very different things in Europe.
Today...Regardless of left/right, you are either pro or anti immigration.
Before...the left and right were genuine (pro capitalist or pro worker/labor).

Fascism itself existed in a time when there was no immigration to Europe. Immigration was thus never part of the political agenda.
#14497545
The FN's roots are anti-elitism, conservative-authoritarian libertarianism (1), colonialism, antisemitism. Their electors were mostly small businesses, settlers, policemen, soldiers, ultra-catholics.

The FN's values nowadays are anti-elitism, social-conservative-authoritarian libertarianism (2), anti-europeanism, anti-immigration, anti-islamism. Their electors are mostly small workers (40%-50% of them), young unemployed white people, small businesses, policemen, ultra-catholics.



All in all the FN today is less "fascist" (whatever that means) than most of U.S. republicans and as racist and intolerant as most of those (3). Marine Le Pen herself is very close from Sarkozy: Sarkozy favors rich people more (he wants to lower their taxes), he is a convinced pro-European and he leans more on Christians and Jews, but aside of that they are ideologically close. She will end up in an UMP-FN (4) coalition and it will look a lot like the 2007-2012 years under Sarkozy. Of course we will not leave the EU or the eurozone, she will bargain for a referendum and the vote will be in favor of the euro after six months of pro-euro propaganda. However Le Pen and the UMP could together renegotiate the Schengen agreement.

As for me I hated Sarkozy's mandate, I would hate a Le Pen's mandate. But she's not "fascist", only in the mouths of some propagandists.



(1) The FN used to favor small and flat taxes, and they were opposed to most regulations and norms. Yet they were strongly in favor of moral regulations (anti-abortion), of a strong police, of death penalty.

(2) Given the rise of poor electors among the FN's supporters they now favor social programs and no longer advocate for a flat tax. Yet they still emphasize speeches against taxes. They also insist on social frauds, they want less police on roads, and they still lean on small businesses (less norms and laws). They more or less discarded Christian themes (abortion) but they still want a strong police and death penalty.

(3) Both parties are anti-muslim, the republicans are anti-latinos but will ally with them, the FN still has some antisemitism but will ally with Israel's supporters against Muslims.

(4) UMP is the main right-wing party (Sarkozy).
#14497571
They seem right wing libertarian populists, with a very plastic party platform. The anti inmigration ideas are a solid product line. I am opposed to EU immigration law, mostly because it hurts the workng class. And I prefer atheist immigrants who speak English and one other european language.w
#14497599
The FN was a neo-Nazi party when Ms Le Pen's father, Jean-Marie Le Pen, was in charge but Ms Le Pen has been cleaning up the former fascist party to make it more appealing to French voters. Jean-Marie Le Pen faced a ban imposed by the European Parliament and he left the party with €20m in debt and leading a straightforward fascist party is old-fashioned and unproductive nowadays, which is why Ms Le Pen has been making minor adjustments to soften the FN's image. It has been reported that the FN borrowed €40m in total from a Russian bank to fund the upcoming national and presidential elections and the FN has been pro-Putin for several years to curry favour with Putin. The party slammed France's decision to delay the delivery of a warship to Russia because of tensions over Ukraine and an uneasy alliance may be developing between the FN and Putin. The Kremlin and the FN share a dislike of the European Union and both Putin and Le Pen opposed the military intervention in Syria.

Image
The leader of the French National Front was received in Moscow like a cabinet minister: Marine Le Pen met with State Duma Speaker Sergei Naryshkin (right).

The €9m (£7m) that French rising star of politics Front National (FN) borrowed from a Russian lender may be just the tip of the iceberg, as fresh reports indicate that Marine Le Pen's party is in talks with a Kremlin-linked bank to get the staggering figure of €40m in total. Investigative news site Mediapart, who first broke the story about the deal with Moscow-based First Czech Russian Bank (FCRB), owned by pro-Kremlin oligarch Roman Popov, said that the party is looking for another €31m soon. It cited a senior source of the FN political bureau, who detailed the deal in tranches ahead of the national elections in 2017, which Marine Le Pen is looking to win. Another FN MEP, Bernard Monot, told Mediapart that they expressed to the Kremlin-linked bank "a need for comprehensive financing in our discussions with the bank". The first report of a deal with Moscow-based banks raised concern among some commentators worried over possible foreign intrusion into French politics and comes at a time of increasing tension between Moscow and the West over the situation in Ukraine. It is no big surprise that Marine Le Pen, who visited Moscow on several occasions since taking over from her father, is seeking Russian support, despite the fascist origins of the party. At a time when relationships between the European Union and the Kremlin are at an all-time low, with economic and diplomatic sanctions imposed on Russian businessmen and lawmakers, Le Pen's party described Putin as a "patriot" and criticised EU bureaucrats for rekindling the Cold War with the superpower.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-loan-ma ... nk-1477135
#14497647
ThirdTerm wrote:The FN was a neo-Nazi party when Ms Le Pen's father, Jean-Marie Le Pen, was in charge

No it has never been a neo-nazi party, not even close, I am unaware of any French political sciences researcher who would have used this term.

Its economic views were libertarian, its moral was ultra-catholicism, its only imperialism was focused on colonies (rather than within Europe), it never had plans regarding Jews and as nationalists most of the party associated Nazism with the occupation and looked negatively at it.

Many of its members were certainly anti-semitic (and a sizable fraction still is), Le Pen's wing had a sympathy for Pétain and negationnist ideas, but anti-semitism was not a part of the electoral lines nor an identifying ideological component. More importantly Le Pen actually perceived the few neo-nazis within the party as a threat as he thought they didn't actually agree to the party lines and suspected them of entryism. I believe they actually tried to instrument each other.
#14630537
Since she is becoming quite relevant now, Id figure Id comment. Marine Le Pen is not a fascist, she is however a national conservatist. Today there isnt really any true fascist politicians.
#14630928
If Le Pen and the Front National can be described in one word it would be vulgar, not fascist. They're just riding the wave of rising European xenophobia. As soon as this madness is over, they will fade away.
#14634231
She appears to me to be a nationalist, which by itself not a horrible thing. Every citizen of every country hopes that their socioeconomic opportunities improve. The means is the question. How is it obtained?
#14731653
rather nationalist or ultra-nationalist. I do not understand why she wants to leave the EU, because since Britain is away is France more important in the club as sole military important power. France has declined compared to Germany in economical sector in the last decades.
Russia-Ukraine War 2022

Are people on this thread actually trying to argu[…]

Isn't oil and electricity bought and sold like ev[…]

@Potemkin I heard this song in the Plaza Grande […]

I (still) have a dream

Even with those millions though. I will not be ab[…]