Why Do Fascists Hate Christianity? - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14727173
Anti-Clericalism is not anti-Christianity.
Many Fascists were anti-clerical not anti-Christian (IE: 80% of SS members were Roman Catholic).

The reason for anti-clericalism is obvious. The Fascist places the state above all else, in order to directly liaise with the people and best serve them. The Vatican before secularization, for instance in Germany, was a state within the German state. Same in Italy. Look up "Kulturkampf". That means the German Catholics had 2 masters and 2 loyalties: Roman Catholic hierarchy and the German state. The Vatican could effectively tell German (catholics) who to vote for, to refuse enlistment in war, whatever they didnt agree with. And they did, in Germany the Vatican had its own political party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_Party_(Germany)).

By the way this anti-clericalism was not only Fascism. For instance in France, the French revolution had similar feelings. Even the Kings of France, or England, and so on previously always wrestled with the Vatican for control of their subjects.
#14727185
ImperialSun wrote:Anti-Clericalism is not anti-Christianity.
Many Fascists were anti-clerical not anti-Christian (IE: 80% of SS members were Roman Catholic).


Sure lots of people can have two contradictory ideas in the same head. But real, serious fascism is the antithesis of christianity. Bormann said this openly and many others no doubt sensed it. The fascist agenda wasn't limited to establishing the State as the supreme authority. They strove to promote their own ideology which was largely a reflection of darwinism. Over time the nazis planned to gradually replace christianity with their worldview.
Btw that 80% figure is remarkable for a largely protestant country.
#14727193
Btw that 80% figure is remarkable for a largely protestant country.

Nazism was a Bavarian thing rather than a Prussian thing, Starman. Bavaria, like Austria, was and is largely Catholic rather than Protestant.
#14727201
starman2003 wrote:Sure lots of people can have two contradictory ideas in the same head. But real, serious fascism is the antithesis of christianity. Bormann said this openly and many others no doubt sensed it. The fascist agenda wasn't limited to establishing the State as the supreme authority. They strove to promote their own ideology which was largely a reflection of darwinism. Over time the nazis planned to gradually replace christianity with their worldview.
Btw that 80% figure is remarkable for a largely protestant country.


Again, anti-clericalism is not synonymous with anti-Christianity.
Bormann is not an authority on what Fascism is, he was a clerical worker at best.
You seem to conflagrate racial ideology & eugenic policy with Fascism, with are separate: One is a political system, the other a social policy. The USA was a "democracy" and had Eugenic & racial policies.

"Over time the nazis planned to gradually replace christianity with their worldview" - What does "replace christianity with their own worldview" mean? If you intend to say that Christianity was to be wiped out from Germany, then there is no evidence of such, except the contrary.

For example the Reich signed a Konkordat with Rome, and for a short time pushed the "German Christian" movement before reverting to a Catholic policy when the former proved unpopular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_M%C3%BCller
Rome even provided an official Catholic Chaplain for the Wehrmacht: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Justus_Rarkowski

The idea that being a Reich Citizen was incompatible with being a Christian (let alone religion in general) is completely ludicrous, there are millions of examples of that, the first of which being how religion was tackled in the SS (being atheist disqualified a recruit, Muslims/Protestants/Catholics intermingled and prospered).
I've read probably dozens of memoirs from Waffen SS and they all say that religions were not only tolerated but advocated in all arms of the German armed forces. There were even completely Nazi chaplains like the famous French Catholic priest Jean de Mayol de Lupé, who served in the SS Charlemagne division.

Germany was (and still is) a deeply Christian country, its basically a modern invention that Nazi government wanted to stamp out the religion out of Germany, based on dubious sources like Himmler and some SS having Pagan beliefs (which most of the Nazis laughed at). People just dont seem to get how Christian and faithful Germany was during and before the Third Reich (down to their belt buckle), it just wouldnt have been possible nor logical to attempt to stamp out Christianity. Even Hitler himself was a devout Catholic despite what some ideologues say.
#14727208
ImperialSun wrote:Bormann is not an authority on what Fascism is, he was a clerical worker at best.


He was one of the top nazis, whom Hitler seems to have granted special privileges. I believe Streicher was also hostile to christianity.


You seem to conflagrate racial ideology & eugenic policy with Fascism, with are separate: One is a political system, the other a social policy.


Well, racialism was an important part of nazi ideology. As for fascism I understand Mussolini was an atheist.

"Over time the nazis planned to gradually replace christianity with their worldview" - What does "replace christianity with their own worldview" mean? If you intend to say that Christianity was to be wiped out from Germany, then there is no evidence of such, except the contrary.


From what I recall reading, in Shirer's The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich the gradual replacement of christian beliefs was a longterm nazi goal.

For example the Reich signed a Konkordat with Rome, and for a short time pushed the "German Christian" movement before reverting to a Catholic policy when the former proved unpopular.


But the konkordat was just a tactical move; holy joe 1 later started bitching that "nazism was a great apostasy from jesus christ."

The idea that being a Reich Citizen was incompatible with being a Christian (let alone religion in general) is completely ludicrous,


Nazi not reich citizen.

(being atheist disqualified a recruit, Muslims/Protestants/Catholics intermingled and prospered).


Dunno what to make of that; somebody may have equated or confused atheism with marxism or jewish/liberal intellectuals.

I've read probably dozens of memoirs from Waffen SS and they all say that religions were not only tolerated but advocated in all arms of the German armed forces.


Mostly reflected tradition more than nazi preference.

it just wouldnt have been possible nor logical to attempt to stamp out Christianity.


Sure not openly or right away.

Even Hitler himself was a devout Catholic despite what some ideologues say.


:lol: Did he go to church regularly if at all? Btw in his secret conversations Hitler was unflattering toward christianity. Once when a delegation of Arabs said that Germans might be better off if Muslim armies won in 732, since Islam would be better suited to the German temperament (conquest instead of humility) Hitler, inpressed, said privately afterwards in effect that just about every other religion was better than christianity.
#14727218
starman2003 wrote:The fascist agenda wasn't limited to establishing the State as the supreme authority. They strove to promote their own ideology which was largely a reflection of darwinism.

It is not noted enough that Social Darwinism long preceded Darwin. The idea that peoples evolved and devolved based on selection permeated most pre modern societies. Eugenic ideas were also common. The Roman Republic was very much based on Social Darwinist principles. The actual science of Darwin not being ideologically significant.

Christianity was a pacifistic, egalitarian anti materialist ideology. This is plain for anyone to see who wants to see it. Of course across the centuries people as is their wont have had little trouble in combining Christianity with completely contradictory ideas that supported war, aristocracy and the accumulation of vast riches. There is no such thing as true Christianity, any more than there is a true Islam or a true Marxism. These ideologies are based on lies, but the simplest interpretation of Christianity is pacifistic, egalitarian anti materialist as the simplest interpretation of Islam is militarist, terrorist, slavery justifying, sexually perverted (by modern sensibilities) and materialist.
#14727441
Rich wrote:The Roman Republic was very much based on Social Darwinist principles.


I dunnoo... there was legislation to improve the lot of the plebs and they had tribunes. And the Gracchi. Of course the Empire saw free bread and circuses...

Christianity was a pacifistic, egalitarian anti materialist ideology. This is plain for anyone to see who wants to see it.


Of course; I could never understand christian fascists.

the simplest interpretation of Islam is militarist, terrorist, slavery justifying, sexually perverted (by modern sensibilities) and materialist.


Interpretation or misinterpretation e.g. "in the name of allah, the merciful the compassionate." Muslims are also supposed to give alms to the poor.
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