Why Do Fascists Hate Christianity? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14466744
I noticed that historically most fascists, including National Socialists were not keen on Christianity. Look at Mussolini who was anti-clerical and only tried to approach the Vatican out of political expediency. Then there was the Nazis who had many anti-Christian ideas held among their ranks. Notable among them was Heinrich Himmler who was anti-Christian and flirted with Buddhism and Islam. Hitler also lamented the fact that Germanic Europe had become Christian because he felt it was too meek.

Today a lot of fascists, including those on PoFo are anti-Christian.

Were there any fascists who had a positive view of Christianity or were they all basically nominal (public) Christians who wanted to go to paganism?
#14466747
I'm short on time right now so I'll only touch on your last paragraph.

The ones with a positive view of Christianity were usually merely "para-fascist" (Rexism, Vichy, Austrofascism etc.). The Iron Guard was both Christian, and, I think, is considered genuinely fascist, but their faith was also heterodox in many ways (mainly revolving around the theology of political murder so to speak, and some other things).
#14466786
The Immortal Goon wrote:It didn't help that Pope Pius declared fascism, "Pagan worship of the state,"and effectively declared war on fascism.

...On the other hand, Christians in Spain and Italy were more than happy to ignore that and embrace fascism.
I wonder how much the Papacy was effected by the Kultur Kampf. And remember the Klu Klux Klan were conducting an anti Catholic Kultur Kampf of their own. I feel it had a strong effect on alienating them from Protestant / neo Protestant / secular authority. Also Mussolini was anti Christian almost opposite to Franco and the Ustache.
#14466789
I don't know much about this but I suspect the dislike of xtianism was an anti-joo thing. They saw Christianity as joo-daism for the goyim and thought mittel europans should have an authentically aboriginal religion not derived from joo-kultur. They needn't have worried, the inside word is that xtianism was an authentically aboriginal religion conjured up by Romans courtesy of their joo-ish double agent Saul of Tarsus (aka St Paul) in order to subvert joo-kultur and make troublesome joos easier to rule. But the subversion cult backfired on the Romans when it spread across the whole of europe obligating the Romans to join in too.
#14466827
European fascists traditionally romanticised the pagan era before the Indo-European tribes were subdued by the Roman Catholic Church because the IE tribes were not restrained by a strict moral code of civilised Europeans and the Germanic tribes in the Roman era freely invaded the Roman Empire and sacked Roman cities, which served as a model for Hitler's strategic thinking during the Second World War. Pre-agricultural Europeans typically belonged to Haplogroup U (mtDNA), which is found in 15% of Indian caste as well as 11% of native Europeans as the oldest maternal haplogroup found in Europe. The U tribe originally migrated to Europe around 45,000 years ago from North India and the frequency of U4 is the highest in the Kalash people in Pakistan (34%). Haplogroup U4 is associated with ancient European hunter-gatherer cultures such as the the Pitted Ware culture in Gotland Sweden, the Danish Bell-Beaker culture and the Battle Axe culture in Central Europe. Moreover, Europeans have Ancient North Eurasian ancestry (up to 20%) as Upper Paleolithic Siberians admixed with Scandinavian hunter-gatherers more than 8,000 years ago. A group of Upper Paleolithic Siberians also migrated to the Japanese archipelago in the same period as the Ainu/Jomon tribe and the proportion of Ancient North Eurasian ancestry in the modern Japanese population is up to 40%.

Image
A Kalash girl of the Chitral district in North Pakistan

To clarify the population transformations that accompanied the agricultural transition in Europe, we sequenced the genomes of nine ancient European individuals (Fig. 1A; Extended Data Fig. 1). We sequenced to 19-fold coverage the genome of “Stuttgart”, a ~7,500 year old individual found in Stuttgart in southern Germany who was buried in the context of artifacts from the first widespread Neolithic farming culture of central and northern Europe, the Linearbandkeramik (LBK). We sequenced to 22-fold the genome of “Loschbour”, an ~8,000 year old individual found in the Loschbour rock shelter in Heffingen Luxembourg, from a skeleton that was discovered in the context of Mesolithic hunter-gatherer artifacts (SI1; SI2). We also sequenced DNA from seven ~8,000 year old remains from Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the Motala site in southern Sweden, with the highest coverage individual (Motala12) at 2.4-fold. We mapped the sequences to the human reference genome (hg19), and for the two high coverage individuals (Stuttgart and Loschbour) inferred genotypes7 (SI2). A central challenge in ancient DNA research is to distinguish authentic sequences from contamination. In initial sequencing libraries prepared from all nine individuals, the rate of C>T and G>A mismatches to the human genome at the ends of the DNA molecules was >20% compared with <1% for other nucleotides, suggesting authentic ancient DNA8, 9 (SI3). We inferred a mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) consensus for each sample, and based on the number of reads that differed from the consensus, estimated contamination levels of 0.3% for Loschbour, 0.4% for Stuttgart, and 0.01% - 5% for the Motala individuals (SI3). Stuttgart belonged to mtDNA haplogroup T2, typical of Neolithic Europeans10, while Loschbour and all Motala individuals belonged to haplogroups U5 and U2, typical of pre-agricultural Europeans1, 8 (SI4).
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/12/23/001552.full.pdf

There are definite indications that the Indo-European clergy held certain polytheological and mystical opinions in common, although only the vaguest outlines are known at this point. There was a belief in reincarnation (with time spent between lives in an Other World very similar to the Earthly one), in the sacredness of particular trees, in the continuing relationship between mortals, ancestors and deities, and naturally in the standard laws of magic (see Real Magic.) There was an ascetic tradition of the sort that developed into the various types of yoga in India, complete with the Pagan equivalent of monasteries and convents. There was also, I believe, a European "tantric" tradition of sex and drug magic, although it's possible that this was mostly the native shamanic traditions being absorbed and transmuted. Only the western Celtic clergy (the Druids) seem to have had any sort of organized inter-tribal communications network. Most of the rest of the IE clergy seem to have kept to their own local tribes. Among the Germanic peoples, the priestly class had weakened by the early centuries of the Common Era to the point where the majority of ritual work was done by the heads of households. We don't know whether or not any but the highest ranking clergy were full-time priests and priestesses. At the height of the Celtic cultures, training for the clergy was said to take twenty years of hard work, which would not have left much time or energy for developing other careers. Among the Scandinavians, there seem to have been priests and priestesses (godar, gydjur) who lived in small temples and occasionally toured the countryside with statues of their patron/matron deities, whom they were considered to be "married" to. In the rest of the Germanic, Slavic and Baltic cultures, however, many of the clergy may have worked part-time, a common custom in many tribal societies. It's also common for such cultures to have full- or part-time healers, who may use herbs, hypnosis, psychology, massage, magic and other techniques. Frequently they will also have diviners and weather predictors (or con- trollers). Midwives, almost always female, are also standard and, as mentioned above, there is usually a priestess or priest working at least part-time. What causes confusion, especially when dealing with extinct cultures, is that different tribes combine these offices into different people. At the opening of the Common Era, European Paleo- paganism consisted of three interwoven layers: firstly, the original pre-Indo-European religions (which were of course also the results of several millennia of religious evolution and cultural conquests); secondly, the proto- Indo-European belief system held by the PIE speakers before they began their migrations; and thirdly, the full scale "high religions" of the developed Indo-European cultures. Disentangling these various layers is going to take a very long time, if indeed it will ever be actually possible.
https://www.adf.org/articles/identity/ieclergy.html
Last edited by ThirdTerm on 20 Sep 2014 08:36, edited 1 time in total.
#14466832
Because stark raving mad delusional manics with god complexes(your average fascist leader) are extremely jealous people, and really dont like any sort of divided leadership. They want to be worshiped and obeyed as the god-king, and worship of another (god) is act of betrayal to teh fascist state.


Jealously.
#14466891
Given your supreme love for the Semitic cultures in general, Pugsville, I'm not even remotely surprised that you see it that way. When you start ranting about how the troublesome fascists are worshipping gods other than those prescribed by the Semites, that's when the game is over.

Seriously. Thread over, guys, Pugsville has accidentally given you all the answer that you will need.

Fascists wanted to return to the gods of their ancestors, and the enemy wanted to reimpose the Jewish god onto Europe.
#14466941
Political Interest wrote:I noticed that historically most fascists, including National Socialists were not keen on Christianity. Look at Mussolini who was anti-clerical and only tried to approach the Vatican out of political expediency. Then there was the Nazis who had many anti-Christian ideas held among their ranks. Notable among them was Heinrich Himmler who was anti-Christian and flirted with Buddhism and Islam. Hitler also lamented the fact that Germanic Europe had become Christian because he felt it was too meek.

Today a lot of fascists, including those on PoFo are anti-Christian.


It's not at all surprising that fascists, then and now, oppose(d) christianity. Fascism and christianity are poles apart; I 've mentioned this before. Great worldly ambition and will to power vs otherworldliness and humility. Veneration of the Great Man in the real world vs worship of an unseen, mythical god.
True many people are capable of having two contradictory or mutually exclusive ideas in the same head so there were christian fascists. But the greatest fascist leaders had no such delusions. The nazis btw basically weren't trying to return to pagan gods but adhere to a new secular worldview reflecting science or at least their interpretation of it, notably darwinism.
#14466946
starman2003 wrote:The nazis btw basically weren't trying to return to pagan gods but adhere to a new secular worldview reflecting science or at least their interpretation of it, notably darwinism.
So called social Darwinism was the almost universal belief system of humanity. All peoples understood the need to protect their genetic health of the tribe even if they had no understanding of the mirco biology and DNA mechanisms that underlay genetics. Its modern liberal leftie fantasy that evolution has stopped.
#14467396
I don't think fascists hate Christianity.

I think they hate any religion that helps or allows people to organise on societal level outside of the power of the fascist gov't.

It just seems that they hate Christianity because Christianity was the main religion in Europe, where fascism first reared its malformed and jealous head. But one need only look at Myanmar to see that authoritarian gov'ts would also target other religions.

I think it would be safer to say that authoritarians hate all religions that do not bend their knee to the oppressors.
#14467404
Yes, funny how Myanmar supports Buddhism, but despises Islam. It couldn't be because the religion of the Burmese National Army was Theravada Buddhism or anything. And that couldn't possibly be because that was the religion of the former Konbaung Dynasty, right?

Going from this:
Image

To this:
Image

Was not a particularly radical leap.
#14467467
Fascists, like all totalitarians, dislike Christianity because the Church can become a political force. Many who got involved in the resistance against the Nazis were believing Christians. It was their faith and the support from their community that gave them the strength to oppose the tyranny.
#14467487
Atlantis wrote:Fascists, like all totalitarians, dislike Christianity because the Church can become a political force. Many who got involved in the resistance against the Nazis were believing Christians. It was their faith and the support from their community that gave them the strength to oppose the tyranny.

You may be thinking of the National Socialists in Germany. In Austria, the Fascists and the Catholic Church were rather fond of each other. I think you speak German, Atlantis, so you can read up on it here, if you are interested.

Fascism != German Nazis.
#14467573
Fascism != German Nazis.


Yes but in the same way as Maoist China != Stalinist Russia

Even while having differences, they could be put under same larger umbrella just like China and USSR.
#14467614
Atlantis wrote:Fascists, like all totalitarians, dislike Christianity because the Church can become a political force.


There was more to it than that. As I've posted, the value systems of (real) fascism and christianity were completely opposed.

Many who got involved in the resistance against the Nazis were believing Christians. It was their faith


Not surprising at all.

and the support from their community


Well, not very much. Most Germans opposed the resistance.
#14467633
Among the common criticisms from the far-Right:
* Christianity is originally a Jewish religion, not a European one.
* Christianity is a universalist religion (equality of souls, universal proselytism) and therefore tends to dissolve nations (although some argue Christianity was de facto ethnocentric and kind of folkish when it was Germanized by the Franks, lasting throughout the Middle Ages).
* Christianity is too goody-goody, self-effacing and world-rejecting (turn the other cheek, etc), what Nietzsche called a slave morality.

That said, as others have noted, some far-rightists are (pro-)Christian. Nationalists (whether one classifies them as far-Right or not) like the Front National's Bruno Gollnisch (who is a democrat) or Égalité et Réconciliation's Alain Soral are also pro-Christian.

I find the debates on what (civil) religion Westerners/Europeans should have to be fascinating.
#14467682
Rei Murasame wrote:Yes, funny how Myanmar supports Buddhism, but despises Islam. It couldn't be because the religion of the Burmese National Army was Theravada Buddhism or anything. And that couldn't possibly be because that was the religion of the former Konbaung Dynasty, right?

....

Was not a particularly radical leap.


None of this contradicts what I said in the least.

All this says is that Theravada Buddhism in Burma allowed itself to be ruled by the gov't. Probably because this gave special favours to the elite of Theravada Buddhism in Burma.

-----------------

Ombrageux wrote:I find the debates on what (civil) religion Westerners/Europeans should have to be fascinating.


I find them to be irrelevant. Westerners/Europeans can already practice whatever religion they want. There is no religion they should have to follow.
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