Fascists, I am curious - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14539526
Dystopian Darkness wrote:Then what do you stand for? Because current western societies are based on neo-liberalism


It has no bearing on the discussion, but to get it out of the way quickly, assume I am an anti-capitalist liberal who is also extremely liberal when it comes to civil rights.

Checks and balances between the populus, but I see no reason to allow public authority to arbitrarily harm people. Quite the opposite - People need to know that they'll be punished when they do something wrong and not for no apparent reason - That could lead to chaos, revolutions, armed rebellions and other inconvenient problems.


...and this is what happens in fascist states.

The gov't does get to arbitrarily harm people.
People know that they'll be punished for no apparent reason.
This leads to chaos, revolutions, armed rebellions and other inconvenient problems.

I am saying I don't see valid reasons to believe the informer without evidence - Just because it happened in some past fascist regimes it doesn't mean it would happen again, specially considering human societies are different so many things would not work again - Namely a fascist State wouldn't use Christianity but probably be hostile towards it


The informer needs evidence? Lol. What for? There is no trial. There is no convincing anyone of anything. There is only someone who used to work here or live here and now they don't.
#14539534
...and this is what happens in fascist states.

The gov't does get to arbitrarily harm people.
People know that they'll be punished for no apparent reason.
This leads to chaos, revolutions, armed rebellions and other inconvenient problems.

Revolutions, chaos and armed rebellions happen because people want freedom back, not because the government was arbitrarily harming them. There's no reason to punish people if they behave accordingly, that's a tremendous waste of human potential. I don't see why I should accept your premises simply because not everything went perfect in former fascist states - But even so the probability of being harmed without breaking the state's law was low, unless you were born non-white in nazi germany...

The informer needs evidence? Lol. What for? There is no trial. There is no convincing anyone of anything. There is only someone who used to work here or live here and now they don't.

The only difference between now and a fascist state would be that evidence obtained trough currently illegal means would be allowed - Meaning that all means necessary can be used to obtain proof as long as there's certainty it's reliable. Again, I fail to see why I should accept your viewpoint because there's no reason to waste human potential with simple rumours.
By Decky
#14539536
Well that all sounds fine, unless you were a trade unionist or a bum bandit or a Jehovah's Witness or a gypsy or .... well you get the idea.

So tell me all about how you think trade unionists deserve to die.
#14539539
Decky wrote:Well that all sounds fine, unless you were a trade unionist or a bum bandit or a Jehovah's Witness or a gypsy or .... well you get the idea.

So tell me all about how you think trade unionists deserve to die.

Why does everyone tackle gipsies so much? I'm not interested in racial and ethnic preservation.
By Decky
#14539540
So tell me why you think it would be nice to live in a society where the punishment for being trade unionist is death? I would not like to live in such a place.
#14539543
Decky wrote:So tell me why you think it would be nice to live in a society where the punishment for being trade unionist is death? I would not like to live in such a place.

Trade unions wouldn't be necessary because the State and corporations would do the dirty work for you. There's no point in fucking the labour class and losing national productivity, development and growth. There's also no reason to not redistribute wealth after abolishing modern capitalism and punishing corporate neo-liberal fucktards.

I don't know why your opinion, much like the opinion of all fascism's opponents throughout history is relevant.

"I don't want trade unions to exist because I want to exploit workers and own the means of productions" - Does this mean they should cease to exist (because I don't like them)?
By Decky
#14539545
Right so the working class should just trust the rich to represent our interests. Well that is likely to work well, for the rich anyway.
#14539726
Dystopian Darkness wrote:Revolutions, chaos and armed rebellions happen because people want freedom back, not because the government was arbitrarily harming them. There's no reason to punish people if they behave accordingly, that's a tremendous waste of human potential. I don't see why I should accept your premises simply because not everything went perfect in former fascist states - But even so the probability of being harmed without breaking the state's law was low, unless you were born non-white in nazi germany...


Revolutions, chaos and armed rebellions happen because people want freedom back, and because the government was arbitrarily harming them.

Again, you are ignoring the fact that the police and the informers can do what they want with impunity, so they have very little reason to not rape and kill and take what they want. Yes, a few might not do that because they believe the State needs everyone, but the average officer won't care.

The system you describe only works if all the police and gov't informers are actually good people.

The only difference between now and a fascist state would be that evidence obtained trough currently illegal means would be allowed - Meaning that all means necessary can be used to obtain proof as long as there's certainty it's reliable. Again, I fail to see why I should accept your viewpoint because there's no reason to waste human potential with simple rumours.


When people just disappear one day, there is no trial.
#14539770
Revolutions, chaos and armed rebellions happen because people want freedom back, and because the government was arbitrarily harming them.

What reasons do you have to believe that the second will happen? A fascist state needs productive workers - You can't achieve that if people are arbitrarily harmed and afraid to leave the house. My dad, for example, passed by the state secret police several times and he never got harmed or arrested.
Again, you are ignoring the fact that the police and the informers can do what they want with impunity, so they have very little reason to not rape and kill and take what they want. Yes, a few might not do that because they believe the State needs everyone, but the average officer won't care.

Who told you they would do what they want with impunity? There is absolutely no reason for higher level citizens to not be punished or even politicians (except for the Dulce)
The system you describe only works if all the police and gov't informers are actually good people.

The police and government already do lots of shit in the western world and I have no way to validly complain about it.

When people just disappear one day, there is no trial.

[/quote]
Why should they disappear?
#14539773
Dystopian Darkness wrote:What reasons do you have to believe that the second will happen?


1. History.
2. Human nature.

A fascist state needs productive workers - You can't achieve that if people are arbitrarily harmed and afraid to leave the house. My dad, for example, passed by the state secret police several times and he never got harmed or arrested.


You make the mistake of assuming that the people in gov't actually care about what is best for the state.

Your father's experiences are not universal. I have heard the experiences of people who were forced to become informants when the gov't kidnapped or threatened their family.

Who told you they would do what they want with impunity? There is absolutely no reason for higher level citizens to not be punished or even politicians (except for the Dulce)


Again, you were the one who already agreed with me that they can do it with impunity. Remember your quip about "checks and balances"?

The reason the elite do not get punished is because there is no system to keep them accountable.

The police and government already do lots of shit in the western world and I have no way to validly complain about it.


1. Yes, you do have ways to complain it.
2. This is not a rebuttal to my point.

Why should they disappear?


As I said, the police officer or the informer can simply accuse someone of something with no proof just because the police officer or informer wants the other guy's stuff/wife/job/whatever.
#14539825
1. History.
2. Human nature.

What you call human nature is pretty much a vague concept without scientific meaning - Human nature is justified to promote liberal capitalism but I refuse it.

History is not proof of what will happen, merely and indicator. Also, since fascist States in the past were of various nature and not all similar (i.e. Brazil, Portugal, Spain, Italy and nazi Germany had their differences) there's no way to prove that would happen. What reason do you see for the State to allow unjustified violence against productive indoctrinated citizens?
You make the mistake of assuming that the people in gov't actually care about what is best for the state.

Why shouldn't they? People in Fascist States had support from the majority and were elected trough suffrage - And there's reasons for that.
Your father's experiences are not universal. I have heard the experiences of people who were forced to become informants when the gov't kidnapped or threatened their family.

So become an informant and everything will be fine
Again, you were the one who already agreed with me that they can do it with impunity. Remember your quip about "checks and balances"?

The reason the elite do not get punished is because there is no system to keep them accountable.

The only person who can't get punished is the State's leader

1. Yes, you do have ways to complain it.
2. This is not a rebuttal to my point.

I have free speech that is ignored
As I said, the police officer or the informer can simply accuse someone of something with no proof just because the police officer or informer wants the other guy's stuff/wife/job/whatever.

[/quote]
And why should someone be eliminated without proof? That seems contradicting and harmful to the state's potential and economic stability.
#14539833
Dystopian Darkness wrote:What you call human nature is pretty much a vague concept without scientific meaning - Human nature is justified to promote liberal capitalism but I refuse it.

History is not proof of what will happen, merely and indicator. Also, since fascist States in the past were of various nature and not all similar (i.e. Brazil, Portugal, Spain, Italy and nazi Germany had their differences) there's no way to prove that would happen. What reason do you see for the State to allow unjustified violence against productive indoctrinated citizens?

Why shouldn't they? People in Fascist States had support from the majority and were elected trough suffrage - And there's reasons for that.

So become an informant and everything will be fine

The only person who can't get punished is the State's leader

I have free speech that is ignored

And why should someone be eliminated without proof? That seems contradicting and harmful to the state's potential and economic stability.


I have already answered these questions in this thread. Please reread my previous posts and let me know if there is any confusion, so that I may clarify it.
#14540215
Dystopian Darkness wrote:Why shouldn't they? People in Fascist States had support from the majority and were elected trough suffrage


To survive, any government must have substantial support but the point of authoritarianism (or an potential advantage) is to be able to do unpopular things without having to worry about elections.

The only person who can't get punished is the State's leader


In the real world, anybody can fall if he screws up. After Stalingrad, Hitler was very nearly assassinated at least twice.
#14540274
To survive, any government must have substantial support but the point of authoritarianism (or an potential advantage) is to be able to do unpopular things without having to worry about elections.

Indeed and my point wasn't that authoritarian or fascist States cannot do unpopular things most likely not supported by the general public but that gathering some support and keeping the workers happy is a good tool to promote growth and development - There's reasons why everytime a fascist State falls trough a revolution or coup d'État there's reactionary individuals waiting for the former status quo to be reinstated.


In the real world, anybody can fall if he screws up. After Stalingrad, Hitler was very nearly assassinated at least twice.

Indeed, and I wonder how the State's leader would be effectively punished.
#14540275
Dystopian Darkness wrote:Indeed and my point wasn't that authoritarian or fascist States cannot do unpopular things most likely not supported by the general public but that gathering some support and keeping the workers happy is a good tool to promote growth and development - There's reasons why everytime a fascist State falls trough a revolution or coup d'État there's reactionary individuals waiting for the former status quo to be reinstated.


I understand that a fascist state, like any other, has a vested interest in keeping its workers happy. My point is that fascism is spectacularly badly set up for this. This is because there is no system to keep the individuals in gov't from abusing their power and oppressing the workers for private gain.
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By Saeko
#14540279
Pants-of-dog wrote:I would say the latter; i.e. only a liberal-democracy on paper.


Then why can't you say that fascist dictatorship which does stupid things is only fascist on paper and not genuinely fascist?
#14540280
I can agree that a fascist dictatorship which does stupid things is only fascist on paper and not genuinely fascist.

In that case, there has never really been an actual fascist state.
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By Saeko
#14540283
Pants-of-dog wrote:I can agree that a fascist dictatorship which does stupid things is only fascist on paper and not genuinely fascist.

In that case, there has never really been an actual fascist state.


Or that there were fascist states which also happened to be flawed in some way.
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