Would you live in a fascist state? - Page 14 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14802246
Please provide evidence that the Castro regime is authoritarian. Your ignorance of voting is not an argument.

Also, please provide some sort of evidence that there will ever be a fascist government anywhere that will not be racist. Thanks.
#14802250
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please provide evidence that the Castro regime is authoritarian. Your ignorance of voting is not an argument.

Also, please provide some sort of evidence that there will ever be a fascist government anywhere that will not be racist. Thanks.



I have never been to Cuba (would love to go there someday) so all I can do is read from as many sources as possible. Feel free to discredit one or all of them as you see fit.

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http://www.havanatimes.org/?p=107808
HAVANA TIMES – Authoritarianism encompasses everything from the most banal daily practice to the government measure with the most profound impact on society. Our social experiences in Cuba are saturated with the authoritarian culture we all complain about.

The oppression that characterizes the Cuban regime is operative in the break-up of family ties, disrespect towards consumers, the fear of defending legitimate rights, individualism, the systematic violation of people’s privacy and a long list of etcetera’s.


https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/11/26/cub ... repression
Cuba: Fidel Castro’s Record of Repression - Misguided US Embargo Provided Pretext for Abuse
(Washington, DC) – During his nearly five decades of rule in Cuba, Fidel Castro built a repressive system that punished virtually all forms of dissent, a dark legacy that lives on even after his death.

During Castro’s rule, thousands of Cubans were incarcerated in abysmal prisons, thousands more were harassed and intimidated, and entire generations were denied basic political freedoms. Cuba made improvements in health and education, though many of these gains were undermined by extended periods of economic hardship and by repressive policies.

“As other countries in the region turned away from authoritarian rule, only Fidel Castro’s Cuba continued to repress virtually all civil and political rights,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Castro’s draconian rule and the harsh punishments he meted out to dissidents kept his repressive system rooted firmly in place for decades.”


https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... th/508811/
How Did Fidel Castro Hold On to Cuba for So Long?
The combination of geography, charisma, and authoritarianism that helped the revolutionary outlast 10 American presidents

Fidel Castro’s death came more than a decade after the Cuban revolutionary and authoritarian first handed power to his brother Raul during a severe illness. Castro resigned permanently in 2008, prompting then-President George W. Bush to declare his hope for a democratic transition and vowing that “The United States will help the people of Cuba realize the blessings of liberty.”

Cubans have not yet realized them. Raul Castro began to open Cuba’s economy, and accelerated that opening through a rapprochement with the United States beginning in 2014, which later saw President Barack Obama nominate an ambassador to the island for the first time since the Eisenhower administration and significantly loosen America’s five-decade trade embargo. But Cubans still could not choose their leaders; as Human Rights Watch noted: “Many of the abusive tactics developed during [Fidel’s] time in power—including surveillance, beatings, arbitrary detention, and public acts of repudiation—are still used by the Cuban government.” While Obama offered a measured statement on Fidel’s death, declaring that history would judge his legacy, Cuban American members of Congress were blistering. “A tyrant is dead,” remarked Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Florida Republican representative. “Castro’s successors cannot hide and must not be allowed to hide beneath cosmetic changes that will only lengthen the malaise of the Cuban nation.” The Cuban blogger Yoani Sanchez declared in Spanish on Twitter that Castro’s legacy was “a country in ruins, a nation where young people do not want to live.”


http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/pen ... hts-abuses
State Dept. Reports Major Human Rights Abuses by Cuba's Communist Regime
President Obama’s visit to Cuba includes a meeting with Communist dictator Raul Castro as well as a meeting with Cuban dissidents, and administration officials have said human rights will be on the table during Obama’s time on the island.

But according to the State Department’s Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2014, Cuba is an “authoritarian state” responsible for ongoing human rights abuses.


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Americans are of course highly biased in their assessment of the Cuban regime (as well as responsible for its creation). One could easily point out the many human rights abuses that the American regime are conducting both internally and internationally. This does not make Fidel Castro a saint, I'm afraid.
#14802286
HRW often employs former employees of the US government. Their criticism of Latin American governments has been influenced by US foreign policy.

The other two sources (Havana Times abd The Atlantic) do not seem to have substantive claims about Cuba's supposed authoritarianism.

The CNS is a conservative commentary website, not an objective source.
#14802408
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please provide evidence that the Castro regime is authoritarian. Your ignorance of voting is not an argument.


Communist governments are authoritarian. Under Castro, Cuba was a one party state, with a strongman in power for life, or as long as he was able to govern.

Also, please provide some sort of evidence that there will ever be a fascist government anywhere that will not be racist. Thanks.


I don't think there will ever be a fascist government based on any of the fascist or racist movements we see now. We'll more likely see a military coup led by a black or latino general, or supported by nonwhite troops.
#14802449
starman2003 wrote:Communist governments are authoritarian. Under Castro, Cuba was a one party state, with a strongman in power for life, or as long as he was able to govern.


Communist governments are not inherently authoritarian.

Nor are one party states.

I don't think there will ever be a fascist government based on any of the fascist or racist movements we see now. We'll more likely see a military coup led by a black or latino general, or supported by nonwhite troops.


When I ask you to provide evidence, I mean some link to an objective source with a verifiable analysis of the subject that supports and corrborates your claims. I do not mean for you to continue musing.
#14802694
Pants-of-dog wrote:Communist governments are not inherently authoritarian.

Nor are one party states.


:lol: A one party state implies suppression of all parties but one and the coercive means to do so. It's hard to imagine everyone in a country having the same political view....In practice communist governments are authoritarian.

I didn't dispute what you said--(existing) fascist groups would rely on racism for support. I just don't think they'll gain power. I think democracy will ultimately break down due to its own failings, which will greatly broaden the support for an alternative (whereas racism, broadly speaking, is an increasingly negligible factor, as indicated by Obama). This basic idea is hardly original see The Twilight of Democracy.
#14802696
Decky wrote:Every time you are in a workplace under capitalism you are in a microcosm of a fascist state with that hated boss playing the role of führer, people survive that don't they? Very Few people like being at work but the vast majority tolerate it.
The nature of my former career required that I work independently. I had a boss, but that boss was thousands of miles away, often checked my progress but rarely ever called. In fact, when I stopped working, she was more worried about me than about my work.
Not so much with some other guys she had to push.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Communist governments are not inherently authoritarian.
But in practice, that's all we've seen.

Venezuela has had their National Assembly disbanded or disenfranchised a couple of times. It's evidence of authoritarianism/totalitarianism.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/30/americas/ ... index.html

I'm starting to question whether everyone ITT understands the definition of authoritarianism, totalitarianism and the similarities thereof.
#14802746
starman2003 wrote::lol: A one party state implies suppression of all parties but one and the coercive means to do so. It's hard to imagine everyone in a country having the same political view....In practice communist governments are authoritarian.


It is possible to imagine a communist or socialist government that allows individuals to exercise rights and freedoms and is accountable to the populace. People have even tried to do this, thus communism and socialism are not inherently authoritarian.

Now, if you have evidence that Cuba is authoritarin, please present it.

I didn't dispute what you said--(existing) fascist groups would rely on racism for support. I just don't think they'll gain power. I think democracy will ultimately break down due to its own failings, which will greatly broaden the support for an alternative (whereas racism, broadly speaking, is an increasingly negligible factor, as indicated by Obama). This basic idea is hardly original see The Twilight of Democracy.


By that time, fascism will be a historical footnote and feudalism would be just as likely.

Citizen J wrote:But in practice, that's all we've seen.


No. Allende is the most famous example of democratic socialism.

Venezuela has had their National Assembly disbanded or disenfranchised a couple of times. It's evidence of authoritarianism/totalitarianism.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/30/americas/ ... index.html

I'm starting to question whether everyone ITT understands the definition of authoritarianism, totalitarianism and the similarities thereof.


I am starting to question the education of US residents when it comes to the understanding of socialism in Latin America. I understand that the US has a vested financial interest in portraying all leftist movements in Latin America as authoritarian, so it can then "liberate" us.
#14802966
Pants-of-dog wrote:It is possible to imagine a communist or socialist government that allows individuals to exercise rights and freedoms and is accountable to the populace. People have even tried to do this, thus communism and socialism are not inherently authoritarian.


Sure it's possible to imagine it or anything. Socialism may not be inherently authoritarian but communism invariably has been.

Now, if you have evidence that Cuba is authoritarin, please present it.


No democratic elections or free market, a single strongman in power as long as he wants, a close association with the USSR...



By that time, fascism will be a historical footnote and feudalism would be just as likely.


Fascism is already long gone. But a new authoritarianism with much in common with it, is highly likely.
If current problems were inherently unsolvable, so the collapse of civilization is inevitable, like the fall of the western empire in 476 CE, then feudalism would be likely. But I don't think problems are unsolvable. It's just that democracy can't solve them. Ergo, at the end of the day, or by c 2050 or so, it should be the casualty not civilization.
#14803026
starman2003 wrote:Sure it's possible to imagine it or anything. Socialism may not be inherently authoritarian but communism invariably has been.

No democratic elections or free market, a single strongman in power as long as he wants, a close association with the USSR...


Please reread my post where I descrine what I mean by evidence, then please present evidenc ethat corroborates your claim. Thank you.

Fascism is already long gone. But a new authoritarianism with much in common with it, is highly likely.
If current problems were inherently unsolvable, so the collapse of civilization is inevitable, like the fall of the western empire in 476 CE, then feudalism would be likely. But I don't think problems are unsolvable. It's just that democracy can't solve them. Ergo, at the end of the day, or by c 2050 or so, it should be the casualty not civilization.


I doubt it, but I am not here to discuss your religious beliefs.
#14803282
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please reread my post where I descrine what I mean by evidence, then please present evidenc ethat corroborates your claim. Thank you.


I got an idea: Go to Cuba, denounce the government and say you're founding a movement to oppose it in an election. :lol:

I doubt it, but I am not here to discuss your religious beliefs.


I have no religious beliefs. A number of writers in academia have noted what I have--democracy is ill-suited to dealing with current problems, hence is vulnerable.
#14803309
starman2003 wrote:I got an idea: Go to Cuba, denounce the government and say you're founding a movement to oppose it in an election. :lol:


So you have no evidence. Got it. Moving on.

I have no religious beliefs. A number of writers in academia have noted what I have--democracy is ill-suited to dealing with current problems, hence is vulnerable.


Your belief that fascism will one day rise and be the new world order, despite a lack of evidence, seems religious to me.
#14803618
Pants-of-dog wrote:So you have no evidence. Got it. Moving on.


Since you don't believe anything I say, go to Cuba and publicly slam the government there. Go ahead, do it and see for yourself how nonauthoritarian it is. ;)

Your belief that fascism will one day rise and be the new world order, despite a lack of evidence, seems religious to me.


I didn't say fascism will one day rise but a new authoritarianism. As for "lack of evidence"....there is ample evidence democracy can't solve problems or meet challenges. Authoritarianism can do so; when democratic failings get serious enough, it should win out someday.
Last edited by starman2003 on 10 May 2017 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
#14803657
Considering how broadly you define authoritarianism, it seems logical to assume that some country somewhere will have some @starman2003 style authoritarianism soon.

But that does not mean Cuba is authoritarian nor does it mean that democracies will soon become authoritarian governments.
#14803994
Pants-of-dog wrote:But that does not mean Cuba is authoritarian nor does it mean that democracies will soon become authoritarian governments.



Did I say soon? I don't think democracy will disappear in the US and the rest of the world until the second half of this century. Cuba has been a one party nation with a single head of state for half a century and it's not authoritarian. :roll: But again, it seems the only way to convince you would be for you to go there and publicly slam the government. Go ahead, try it. You might actually learn something. :)
#14804051
starman2003 wrote:Did I say soon? I don't think democracy will disappear in the US and the rest of the world until the second half of this century. Cuba has been a one party nation with a single head of state for half a century and it's not authoritarian. :roll: But again, it seems the only way to convince you would be for you to go there and publicly slam the government. Go ahead, try it. You might actually learn something. :)


You never actually specified when democracy would supposedly collapse. If you are now saying that democracy will end sometime in the future (i.e. between now and the eventual death of the entire universe) then you are probably correct, but it is a vague and useless claim.

And yes, I have been to Cuba and openly questioned the government, with Cubans. We were fine.
#14804271
Pants-of-dog wrote:You never actually specified when democracy would supposedly collapse. If you are now saying that democracy will end sometime in the future (i.e. between now and the eventual death of the entire universe) then you are probably correct, but it is a vague and useless claim.


:roll: You don't read my posts! I predicted democracy would disappear in the second half of this century.

And yes, I have been to Cuba and openly questioned the government, with Cubans. We were fine.


Openly questioned the government...I bet you didn't walk down a busy street chanting slogans calling for its overthrow. :lol:
#14804293
starman2003 wrote::roll: You don't read my posts! I predicted democracy would disappear in the second half of this century.


I meant that you had not clarified when democracy was going to collapse until now. Why do you believe that?

Openly questioned the government...I bet you didn't walk down a busy street chanting slogans calling for its overthrow. :lol:


This stupid tangent started when you claimed that Cuba's longevity is due to its authoritarianism.

Please present evidence (in the form of a link to a reputable source and a quote of text that corroborates your claim) for this claim. Thank you.
#14804517
Pants-of-dog wrote:I meant that you had not clarified when democracy was going to collapse until now. Why do you believe that?


Any informed person should believe it. Democracy has been failing for some time, but it can't collapse soon, or until the consequences become overwhelming, because it's so ingrained. The author of The Twilight of Democracy believed it would be essentially gone c 2050. I think consummation of the process will be somewhat later.


This stupid tangent started when you claimed that Cuba's longevity is due to its authoritarianism.


I just said it was authoritarian which is common knowledge. Communist governments led by strongmen in power essentially for life are authoritarian. If you doubt it go there and publically call for the overthrow of its government.
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