Would you live in a fascist state? - Page 17 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14819676
Pants-of-dog wrote:But they did learn two things from that: that they should from then on (which they have),


Had that been the policy the US would've seized gulf oil by 1980 if not sooner.


and that they will put Us economic interests above those of Israel.


:lol: Yeah right. The US has staunchly supported Israel for decades after '73. Total aid has amounted to over $200 billion which was needed here, and the pro-israel bunch blocked some sales to arab states.

The US attacked Hussein in 1991 because he was about to seize Saudi oil,


No he wasn't. For months before 1991 Iraqi troops, anticipating an eventual attack were digging in, forming defensive positions.


It has been 10 years since Operation Iraqi Freedom's bombs first landed in Baghdad. And while most of the U.S.-led coalition forces have long since gone, Western oil companies are only getting started.
Before the 2003 invasion, Iraq's domestic oil industry was fully nationalized and closed to Western oil companies. A decade of war later, it is largely privatized and utterly dominated by foreign firms.


So what; that sort of situation was long the norm among arab oil producers. As long as Iraq is getting paid the loyalties, and has the ultimate say on its territory, its oil hasn't been taken over by us.



I have no idea why so many right wing authoritarian people want to always blame everything on the Jews.


I'm not blaming everything on the jews! Even pro-Israel policy isn't entirely their fault; certain christians are also responsible.
#14819757
starman2003 wrote:Had that been the policy the US would've seized gulf oil by 1980 if not sooner.


They started making efforts towards that rig after 1973. It is perhaps a tetstament to Middle East countries that they were unable to really start seizing oil until later.

:lol: Yeah right. The US has staunchly supported Israel for decades after '73. Total aid has amounted to over $200 billion which was needed here, and the pro-israel bunch blocked some sales to arab states.


....and yet, according to your cited example, the US got Israel to give up land they seized in the recent war, in order to get the oil flowing again.

No he wasn't. For months before 1991 Iraqi troops, anticipating an eventual attack were digging in, forming defensive positions.


How does that contradict the claim that the US attacked Iraq as asoon as Hussein threatened Saudi oil fields?

So what; that sort of situation was long the norm among arab oil producers. As long as Iraq is getting paid the loyalties, and has the ultimate say on its territory, its oil hasn't been taken over by us.


Since Iraq does not get ultimate say, and since previously nationalised indsutries (specifically, the oil industries) are all now owned by western corporations, and since Iraq may not be getting any royalties at all, it seems clear that the US now owns Iraq oil.

I'm not blaming everything on the jews! Even pro-Israel policy isn't entirely their fault; certain christians are also responsible.


Frankly, I do not care very much about the whole US/Israel thing. It is an alliance between capitalists for the sake of resource exploitation. For some reason, the right keeps making it about Jews.
#14819938
Pants-of-dog wrote:They started making efforts towards that rig after 1973. It is perhaps a tetstament to Middle East countries that they were unable to really start seizing oil until later.


Saudi Arabia and other gulf states had little military capability and could've easily been taken over by 1977 or so. Politically as well as militarily it would've been a cinch since the US public didn't much care for the rich arabs.



....and yet, according to your cited example, the US got Israel to give up land they seized in the recent war, in order to get the oil flowing again.


The US fostered the disengagement agreement of '74 to help prevent another war which might lead to WWIII. Ending the embargo was a factor, but had war broken out again the great clout of the zionist lobby here would've ensured US support for Israel even at the expense of another embargo.



How does that contradict the claim that the US attacked Iraq as asoon as Hussein threatened Saudi oil fields?


The US attacked to get him out of Kuwait. I don't think he ever seriously threatened saudi oilfields.



Since Iraq does not get ultimate say, and since previously nationalised indsutries (specifically, the oil industries) are all now owned by western corporations, and since Iraq may not be getting any royalties at all, it seems clear that the US now owns Iraq oil.


Iraq isn't getting royalties?? :lol: Then why aren't the shiites sabotaging the oilfields; the country would have little to lose.



Frankly, I do not care very much about the whole US/Israel thing. It is an alliance between capitalists for the sake of resource exploitation. For some reason, the right keeps making it about Jews.


The principal force behind the US policy of backing Israel is the passionate pro-israel attitude of some people, mostly jews, here. It has nothing to do with "resource exploitation." Compared to its old enemies, Israel has no resources. It is a testament to the power of the pro-isreal bunch that they can force us to sacrifice real interests by backing Israel. And to a considerable degree it is about jews since they are the backbone of the policy.
#14819976
starman2003 wrote:Saudi Arabia and other gulf states had little military capability and could've easily been taken over by 1977 or so. Politically as well as militarily it would've been a cinch since the US public didn't much care for the rich arabs.


Saudi Arabia is a right wing dictatorship that is allied with the US. The US does not need to invade and install a friendly government to control Saudi oil. They already do.

The US fostered the disengagement agreement of '74 to help prevent another war which might lead to WWIII. Ending the embargo was a factor, but had war broken out again the great clout of the zionist lobby here would've ensured US support for Israel even at the expense of another embargo.


I do not care about your "Jews run the US government" conspiracy.

The US attacked to get him out of Kuwait. I don't think he ever seriously threatened saudi oilfields.


Well, now you know better.

Iraq isn't getting royalties?? :lol: Then why aren't the shiites sabotaging the oilfields; the country would have little to lose.


They might be getting royalties. Whatever the puppet government installed by the US is told to charge US companies, by the US government.

The principal force behind the US policy of backing Israel is the passionate pro-israel attitude of some people, mostly jews, here. It has nothing to do with "resource exploitation." Compared to its old enemies, Israel has no resources. It is a testament to the power of the pro-isreal bunch that they can force us to sacrifice real interests by backing Israel. And to a considerable degree it is about jews since they are the backbone of the policy.

[/quote]

Really? The US dies not bomb people for economic benefit, but does bomb them becuase the Jews secretly control,everything and tell them to?

Let me know when you are done making anti-Semitic crap and start discussing the topic.
#14820170
Pants-of-dog wrote:Saudi Arabia is a right wing dictatorship that is allied with the US. The US does not need to invade and install a friendly government to control Saudi oil. They already do.


:roll: If ever there was a nonsensical conspiracy theory, it's that.....The saudis cut off oil shipments to the US in 1973-74, with impunity...A few years later sheik Yamani threatened to make the west pay a "price it'll never forget," if it didn't help bring about peace i.e. pressure israel. Pretty strange behavior for a nation whose oil is "controlled" by the US... :lol:



I do not care about your "Jews run the US government" conspiracy.


I didn't say they "run the US government" just exert inordinate influence on US Mideast policy. This "conspiracy theory"--the great clout of the pro-Israel lobby-- has been common knowledge for decades. Read Walt and Mearsheimer The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy. Another great read--They Dared to Speak Out--about the fate of those who incurred the dislike of the lobby.


Well, now you know better.


Saddam didn't seriously threaten saudi oilfields. His army didn't cross the kuwait-saudi border in 1990, and he began making defensive preparations very soon after taking kuwait.

They might be getting royalties. Whatever the puppet government installed by the US is told to charge US companies, by the US government.


May be getting royalties... :lol: Iraq would be completely bankrupt without them. And it's under Iranian influence.


Really? The US dies not bomb people for economic benefit, but does bomb them becuase the Jews secretly control,everything and tell them to?


:roll: Talk about crap...I didn't say the jews "secretly control everything"!! But no informed, objective observer doubts the power of the pro-israel lobby and its ruinous effects on US policy. As two distinguished professors, Walt and Mearsheimer show, the lobby was behind the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and the principal motivation was to benefit Israel.


Let me know when you are done making anti-Semitic crap and start discussing the topic.


Hey if you can't stand hearing the truth and want to end the discussion be my guest.
#14820518
Pants-of-dog wrote:If you wish to believe that the US would not go to war to enrich itself but would go to war because of the Jews, then this discussion is fruitless.


I don't believe the US has gone to war solely for the purpose of enriching itself. But two distinguished professors clearly demonstrate it went to war in 2003 largely to benefit Israel, the #1 concern of jewish neocons who cast such a long shadow over the shrub administration.
#14820880
Pants-of-dog wrote:Right. Because people never act in a selfish or self serving way. Except Jews.



Of course the US government has often acted in the best strategic interest of the country, more often than in its best economic interest (the US being rich, has long felt it could afford what others consider awful luxuries). A major problem in recent decades has been the clout of those who consider the interests of a foreign state more important than those of the US itself. Because of its democracy, the US has been unable to do what it really should, from its point of view. If the US were really selfish, and fully capable of serving its own interests, it would've long ago done what almost any other nation in our situation would've--dumped Israel in exchange for free oil for ten years, or something of that nature.
#14820898
starman2003 wrote:Of course the US government has often acted in the best strategic interest of the country, more often than in its best economic interest (the US being rich, has long felt it could afford what others consider awful luxuries). A major problem in recent decades has been the clout of those who consider the interests of a foreign state more important than those of the US itself. Because of its democracy, the US has been unable to do what it really should, from its point of view. If the US were really selfish, and fully capable of serving its own interests, it would've long ago done what almost any other nation in our situation would've--dumped Israel in exchange for free oil for ten years, or something of that nature.


Pants-of-dog wrote:If you wish to believe that the US would not go to war to enrich itself but would go to war because of the Jews, then this discussion is fruitless.


It seems like there is something about the far right that either attracts or creates people who believe in myths, esoterica, and other unverifiable crap, while ignoring material conditions.
#14821093
Pants-of-dog wrote:It seems like there is something about the far right that either attracts or creates people who believe in myths, esoterica, and other unverifiable crap, while ignoring material conditions.


Talk about myths and crap (e.g. the US controls saudi oil :lol: ). As I've indicated, the views I've expressed are based on the research of credentialed academics as well as myself. If you can't take it and have nothing better to say than the above, there's no point in continuing this.
#14821108
The difference is that my claim (that the US violently installs puppet governments for their own economic interest) is a verifiable claim. The claim that Jews secretly control everything is not. It is a conspiracy theory.
#14821266
Pants-of-dog wrote:The difference is that my claim (that the US violently installs puppet governments for their own economic interest) is a verifiable claim.


Not just economic interest.

The claim that Jews secretly control everything is not. It is a conspiracy theory.


:roll: Yet again....I did not say jews "secretly control everything"!! You either don't read my posts or deliberately misrepresent my view. I say the pro-Israel lobby, largely (but not entirely) composed of jews, wields inordinate influence on US Mideast policy. That's absolutely indisputable, as professors Walt and Mearsheimer show in their seminal The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy.
#14821290
starman2003 wrote:Not just economic interest.


You have yet to show any other interest.

:roll: Yet again....I did not say jews "secretly control everything"!! You either don't read my posts or deliberately misrepresent my view. I say the pro-Israel lobby, largely (but not entirely) composed of jews, wields inordinate influence on US Mideast policy. That's absolutely indisputable, as professors Walt and Mearsheimer show in their seminal The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy.


I assumed that you, as a fascist, have a thing about Jews. Most fascists do.

US support of Israel can be explained solely through economic interests and strategic interests. If some Jews are smart enough to manipulate the US lobbying ststem to their advantage, that is not a surprise.
#14821413
Pants-of-dog wrote:You have yet to show any other interest.


Strategic.


US support of Israel can be explained solely through economic interests and strategic interests.


:roll: This is worse than absurd, as Walt and Mearsheimer show. The US hasn't supported Israel because of strategic and economic interests but in spite of them! Israel's old adversaries were vastly more important economically and far more populous. Backing Israel caused considerable harm to the US economy in 1973-74, when the arabs cut off oil shipments in retaliation. That in addition to the $200 billion in direct aid over the years--money we didn't have....
It's noteworthy that even now, no other nation backs Israel like the US does. It has nothing to do with real interests; it's a luxury only the US thinks it can afford. Even in the wake of Israel's '67 victory Kosygin told Johnson "I can't understand you Americans backing Israel. There are 50 million arabs and only two million Israelis."Add to that arab/muslim oil and backing Israel is anything but good for our interests. The policy stems from the nature of our democracy. Most Americans are ignorant of the Mideast. Generally, only the jews vote on the basis of Mideast policy. In addition, some have a lot of money to bankroll politicians. Essentially our "leaders" are forced to throw our country under the bus (or regard it as secondary to Israel) to further or maintain their political careers. It's an indictment of the whole system and a recipe for disaster, someday.
#14821443
There is a strategic interest in keeping the Suez canal open for business. As long as the Suez is open and not used by Arabs to hold world trade to ransom then there is a use for a highly militarised state in the levant which all the neighbouring countries hate with wild abandon. While all the arabs are foaming at the mouth over the existence of Israel then they aren't casting greedy eyes at Suez. Israel is a strategic distraction.
#14821593
SolarCross wrote:There is a strategic interest in keeping the Suez canal open for business.


In 1976-73, when it was closed, the USSR was among those most eager to see it reopened. Only the US prevented it from doing so unilaterally.


As long as the Suez is open and not used by Arabs to hold world trade to ransom


FYI the Egyptians who've long controlled the canal, are arabs...



While all the arabs are foaming at the mouth over the existence of Israel then they aren't casting greedy eyes at Suez.


Arabs already have suez and Israel's '67 victory caused it to be closed for years.

Pants-of-dog wrote:
And those strategic interests are stepping stones toward economic benefits.


Not invariably. I don't think the US expected economic benefits in Afghanistan or Pakistan.
#14821595
SolarCross wrote:There is a strategic interest in keeping the Suez canal open for business. As long as the Suez is open and not used by Arabs to hold world trade to ransom then there is a use for a highly militarised state in the levant which all the neighbouring countries hate with wild abandon. While all the arabs are foaming at the mouth over the existence of Israel then they aren't casting greedy eyes at Suez. Israel is a strategic distraction.


There are a number of ways of keeping the Suez Canal open without needing to confront the Arabs. Maintaining good relations with Egypt would be a far more effective means of ensuring transit through there than attacking them for nationalising the canal. The West has never understood that aggressively trying to force the Middle East to surrender all of its interests to an outside power will only make them more anti-Western. When Nasser nationalised the Suez Canal he should have been allowed to do so. Intervention in that conflict was not a British or French interest and in the end the West lost that asset anyhow. It was the same when Mossadeqh nationalised the oil. These nations do have the right to some level of sovereignty and our failure to recognise such a right will be to our own detriment.
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