Why Fascism? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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By Saeko
#14824568
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please see my initial post in this thread. Thank you.


No. You need to be clear with what it is that you mean. When you speak of "the elite's selfish interests", are you talking about the elite as a whole or just one person?

Your questions are often far less clear than you imagine.
User avatar
By Saeko
#14824569
Oxymandias wrote:@Saeko

I have several questions:

1. What would your ideal fascist state look like?

2. How would it be organized?


These questions are too broad. Sorry.

3. If you had the ability to create a fascist state in America what would it be like and how would you hypothetically achieve it?


I have no idea.

4. What would be the culture of your fascist state?


Again, too broad. Very militaristic and non-consumerist is the most I can say.

5. What would be your nation's thoughts on art?


I think artists should be free to do their work, and art needs to be decommercialized.

6. What artstyle would your nation favor the most?


I don't know.

7. How would you go about creating a shop or running a business?


You propose your business plan to the party. If they approve it, you get the capital and manpower you need to carry out your plans.

8. How would public housing be like?


One of the state's top priorities. You can't just leave people out in the cold (literally).
By Oxymandias
#14824583
@Saeko

Well to make it more plausible, let's say you have your own political organization with a significant amount of followers and a significant amount of influence. This organization grows consistently and will eventually become as large as the Democratic and Republican party. Furthermore, although you aren't that popular in rural countries, you are very popular in large urban cities and megaregions.

What is the ideology of your ideal fascist state in detail please. We can use this as a starting point to talk about the values of your fascist nation's culture. Then we can go into art, music, organization, governance, etc. since these things are applications of values.

However art may lead the populace to retaliate against the government or even shift the government and the people's ideology.

Maybe a combination of futurism and romanticism? That seems suitable for a fascist state.

But what if the business plan is new, risky, or innovative enough so that the government may feel compelled to reject it? What if the business plan seems like a bad idea but is actually a good one? What if the business plan is incompatible with the government's ideology but such a business plan could bring prosperity to the nation?

But how would it be like? What would it's standards be? Would it be similar to Singapores?

---------

This is off-topic but I would like to know you're thoughts on Singapore for whatever reason.
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By AFAIK
#14824608
The USA is a mixed economy with the heavily planned and state controlled aspects funded by revenue that is gained by taxing free enterprise. This leads to major imbalances within the military industrial complex that people regularly criticise but fail to actually address. These problems would be even worse if the entire economy was planned by a dictatorship due to the lack of checks and balances.

Pointing out that one gov't did a good job of picking low hanging fruit doesn't convince me that it would be a good idea to expand its control over everything.

The institution I was referring to was the party.
User avatar
By starman2003
#14824636
Saeko wrote:I have no idea.


No idea how fascism (I prefer not to use that term) could "be achieved" or come about? I've given considerable thought to that. :)

Again, too broad. Very militaristic and non-consumerist is the most I can say.


Agreed.

I think artists should be free to do their work, and art needs to be decommercialized.


But no serious authoritarian system would tolerate art intended as a criticism of the regime.

You propose your business plan to the party. If they approve it, you get the capital and manpower you need to carry out your plans.


The party or State should have its own ambitious goal and devote national resources to its attainment. The State shouldn't dish out resources to those mainly concerned with personal aggrandizement.


One of the state's top priorities. You can't just leave people out in the cold (literally).


Maybe not but life for the masses should be relatively spartan.

I don't see why there needs to be more than one party.



Of course there wouldn't be more than one. If one party strongly believes it has the answers it wouldn't tolerate any others.
By Pants-of-dog
#14824685
Saeko wrote:No. You need to be clear with what it is that you mean. When you speak of "the elite's selfish interests", are you talking about the elite as a whole or just one person?

Your questions are often far less clear than you imagine.


Just one person or a group of people.

My point is that any person (or group of people) wishing to use the system for selfish reasons merely has to convince the people below them that this all for the good of the state.

And since you have just educated your whole populace into listening to these powerful people, there is no reason to think at the people will not buy it.

Consequently, the elite can do whatever it wants and no one will do anything about it.
By Oxymandias
#14824735
@starman2003

Well then with the tools I gave to Saeko, how would you achieve a fascist state in America?

For a refresher, here was one of my responses to Saeko:

"Well to make it more plausible, let's say you have your own political organization with a significant amount of followers and a significant amount of influence. This organization grows consistently and will eventually become as large as the Democratic and Republican party. Furthermore, although you aren't that popular in rural countries, you are very popular in large urban cities and megaregions."

With these tools how would you go about creating a fascist state in America?
By Pants-of-dog
#14824737
It is obvious how to go about creating a fascist movement in the USA.

First, blame all the problems on some sort of ethnic or religious minority. Keep making bad economic decisions and keep blaming the minority. When enough people lose their jobs that they look the other way while cops kill the minority with impunity, you are good to go!
User avatar
By starman2003
#14825006
Oxymandias wrote:@starman2003

Well then with the tools I gave to Saeko, how would you achieve a fascist state in America?

For a refresher, here was one of my responses to Saeko:

"Well to make it more plausible, let's say you have your own political organization with a significant amount of followers and a significant amount of influence. This organization grows consistently and will eventually become as large as the Democratic and Republican party. Furthermore, although you aren't that popular in rural countries, you are very popular in large urban cities and megaregions."

With these tools how would you go about creating a fascist state in America?



There's no way anything remotely like fascism will triumph here until the present system stumbles and fails badly. No fascist party will get anywhere near enough support otherwise and I've always thought the military would spearhead the overthrow of the system. There won't be any radical change until there's a major disaster, such as an economic meltdown, for which democracy is clearly to blame. Bankruptcy, due to voter demands for social spending, is an example. A meltdown might also be triggered by an oil supply interruption, provoked by policies forced on us by the zionist lobby.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14825048
The US is too culturally diverse for fascism. There is currently no possible 'scapegoat' that would be effective.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14825062
Pants-of-dog wrote:Trump seems to be trying real hard to scapegoat Muslims.


Well, if you accept that is what he is trying to do, then you must admit he is really bad at it. His immigration ban would have to be much wider than it currently is to justify such a charge.
By Pants-of-dog
#14825075
Yes, he is very bad at it.

He wanted his immigration ban to be wider, but the constitution did not let him.
User avatar
By Saeko
#14825221
Oxymandias wrote:@Saeko

Well to make it more plausible, let's say you have your own political organization with a significant amount of followers and a significant amount of influence. This organization grows consistently and will eventually become as large as the Democratic and Republican party. Furthermore, although you aren't that popular in rural countries, you are very popular in large urban cities and megaregions.


I simply don't know.

What is the ideology of your ideal fascist state in detail please. We can use this as a starting point to talk about the values of your fascist nation's culture. Then we can go into art, music, organization, governance, etc. since these things are applications of values.


I think I've already explained the ideology.

However art may lead the populace to retaliate against the government or even shift the government and the people's ideology.


I doubt it.

But what if the business plan is new, risky, or innovative enough so that the government may feel compelled to reject it? What if the business plan seems like a bad idea but is actually a good one? What if the business plan is incompatible with the government's ideology but such a business plan could bring prosperity to the nation?


To the last question, there is no such thing. To the first few, oh well. You're basically asking how the party is to make a correct judgment if the party has no way of making the correct judgment.

But how would it be like? What would it's standards be? Would it be similar to Singapores?


This question is still too broad.

---------

This is off-topic but I would like to know you're thoughts on Singapore for whatever reason.


It's a capitalist shithole.
User avatar
By Saeko
#14825222
Pants-of-dog wrote:Just one person or a group of people.


Other party members will keep them in check.

My point is that any person (or group of people) wishing to use the system for selfish reasons merely has to convince the people below them that this all for the good of the state.

And since you have just educated your whole populace into listening to these powerful people, there is no reason to think at the people will not buy it.


No, they've been educated about this fascist ideology. That doesn't mean "just do whatever we tell you to do."

starman2003 wrote:No idea how fascism (I prefer not to use that term) could "be achieved" or come about? I've given considerable thought to that. :)


Great. Share.

But no serious authoritarian system would tolerate art intended as a criticism of the regime.


I disagree. I think criticism is vital to the survival of the regime. There are certain ideas from liberalism which are actually good. Among these, I think, are freedom of speech and the right to a fair and speedy trial.

[Zag Note: Please do not multi-post]
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By starman2003
#14825243
Saeko wrote:Great. Share.

Oxymandias wrote
Then what do you think could cause fascism in the US to happen?


I just posted on it above. A new authoritarian system here can only come about if or when the present system fails badly i.e. when problems of its own making or which it just can't handle get out of control.

One Degree wrote
The US is too culturally diverse for fascism.


The USSR was culturally diverse, at least initially, and communist regimes were established in a number of nations with varying cultures. What is needed is a new ideology with good enough appeal, at least among the brighter elements. I think science is laying the groundwork for that. Even now the catholic church is waning severely due to secularization. :)


I disagree. I think criticism is vital to the survival of the regime. There are certain ideas from liberalism which are actually good. Among these, I think, are freedom of speech and the right to a fair and speedy trial.


:) History shows that really serious authoritarian regimes don't tolerate criticism very much. They gained power by being determined enough to do so, and determination was based on strong conviction that they, and only they, had the answer.
Last edited by starman2003 on 20 Jul 2017 11:18, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14825245
:) History shows that really serious authoritarian regimes don't tolerate criticism very much. They gained power by being determined enough to do so, and determination was based on strong conviction that they, and only they, had the answer.


They actually rise to power through 'scapegoating', like the Democratic party in the US. "All your problems are due to the racism of white men!" It offers nothing except fear, but fear is a great motivator. Authoritarianism must avoid real issues because they can be challenged with facts.
User avatar
By starman2003
#14825247
One Degree wrote:They actually rise to power through 'scapegoating', like the Democratic party in the US. "All your problems are due to the racism of white men!"


They rose to power because the previous system failed badly and they convinced enough people they could do better. The Democrats btw weren't an all-black party. :lol:


It offers nothing except fear, but fear is a great motivator.


Authoritarian regimes offerred hope and promised a better life and a stronger nation etc.


Authoritarianism must avoid real issues because they can be challenged with facts.


Authoritarianism often addressed real issues much more effectively than democratic government e.g. China's one child policy and Stalin's crash industrialization, which saved the whole slavic group from annihilation.

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