What are your thoughts on Hegel? [FASCIST EDITION] - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14916706
Victoribus Spolia wrote:So basically, you think things are going to keep on truckin' as normal into a future of technology and progress. Got it. But you still haven't told me why you believe that.

Primarily, inertia.

Until capitalism is contained and broken to harness, it's unlikely new dynamics will arise.

Zam
#14916707
Zamuel wrote:Until capitalism is contained and broken to harness, it's unlikely new dynamics will arise.


Why do you think capitalism will be broken, but the forces trying to shackle it won't?

To be honest, it seems the cords of bondage upon the market shall be the first to break and not only that, but we are not talking about new dynamics, we are talking about the resurgence of the standard dynamic, arguably the most prevalent that has existed in human history (no counting the "pre-historic.")
#14916720
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Why do you think capitalism will be broken, but the forces trying to shackle it won't?

Numbers, there aren't really all that many "capitalists." Owning a few shares of stocks doesn't make you a capitalist. Banks and insurance companies are the primary targets, they own most of the others.

the resurgence of the standard dynamic, arguably the most prevalent that has existed in human history

You'll have to explain that one, I don't know it and all google has on it is a reference to Television Video standards.

Zam
#14916731
Zamuel wrote:Numbers, there aren't really all that many "capitalists." Owning a few shares of stocks doesn't make you a capitalist. Banks and insurance companies are the primary targets, they own most of the others.


This is a very Marxist way at looking at it. I would consider almost everyone in the world to be a participating capitalist and only anarcho-capitalists as idealogically capitalist.

Capitalism, in pure form, is private property absolutism and therefore the absolute private ownership of everything (including the means of production).

Otherwise, our current world-market system is a corrupted capitalism that is bridled and restrained by governments and states. The advocation of such a state-of-affairs as these is not capitalism, but cronyism.

Zamuel wrote:You'll have to explain that one, I don't know it and all google has on it is a reference to Television Video standards.


When I refer to the standard dynamic, I am referring to the most prevalent socio-economic state of man in recorded history, which was a system of stateless (in the modern sense) landed/territorial heirarchies ruling over a peasantry (including lesser monarchies). Such systems, as we have records of, are the longest lasting in human history and such a state is the same as Anarcho-Capitalism.

Thus, the standard dynamic of human history is anarcho-capitalism, which is the same a feudalism, manorialism, or any other equivalent or analogous system as such.

Such a system lasts the longest and reemerges the most. It is the natural human state, the standard dynamic.
#14916746
Victoribus Spolia wrote:When I refer to the standard dynamic, I am referring to the most prevalent socio-economic state of man in recorded history, which was a system of stateless (in the modern sense) landed/territorial heirarchies ruling over a peasantry (including lesser monarchies). Such systems, as we have records of, are the longest lasting in human history and such a state is the same as Anarcho-Capitalism.

This is fine in a world devoid of significant population. Even so, these communities developed by complication into the incredibly complex world we live in that requires computers to keep track of them. It's a natural progression that has reached it's pinnacle. You think that means it begins to degenerate. I disagree. There is so much pent up inertia behind us that we quite literally cannot stop now. Population pressure and possibly global warming are already driving progress towards orbital migration. Look how many private concerns have jumped into the space race … Within 10 years we will have conventional style (airline) transport into near earth orbit. Corporations are already gobbling up research scientists for orbital industry studies. Nasa has been studying orbital immigration since the 1960s when the concept of "spaceship earth" was originated by a noted scientific engineer (Buckminster Fuller).

In the 1980s (red) china sent a team of scientists and engineers to study the UEC project I was working on (solar power coupled with a large alcohol distillation still). We got a couple of them drunk and they confessed they were actually working on designing colonial space ships. That was almost 40 years ago. You best start playing catch up.

Zam 8)
#14916749
Zamuel wrote:This is fine in a world devoid of significant population.


I don't think that will last. A peak oil situation, a global war, the collapse of fiat-currency, all three at once.

That is all that will take and I would not be surprised if more than 1/2 of the population don't make it through the transition.

Technology won't be the same either and will take a major step backwards.

The thing about "pressure" as you describe, is that if often releases in an explosive manner. This is the same thing with economic bubbles, of which we are also sitting on several.

Fiscal irresponsibility and insolvency, high rates of debased currency and inflation, high rates of welfare, increasing rates of immigration and homosexuality, and declining birth rates are all praexologically predictable given the size of our states and historically we already know where the road ends thanks to every the histories of every civilization which has come before, most notably Rome.

As the saying goes, those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it, and if you think we can sustain our current practices until we enter into a symbiotic relationship with A.I. and live in a galaxy far far away, you are being willfully ignorant.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that will happen given our current trajectory except by cognitive dissonance and the refusal to wake up from a trekkie wet-dream.

Zamuel wrote:That was almost 40 years ago. You best start playing catch up.


Won't happen. We ain't colonizing shit.....except continents we left vacant and forgot existed for 1,000 years after the coming collapse occurs.

in A.D. 2990 we will rediscover abandoned sky scrapers in ruin and covered in vines on islands full of the tribal descendants of western tourists left stranded during the last great war.

We'll probably say the aliens built them too.
#14917006
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I don't think that will last. A peak oil situation, a global war, the collapse of fiat-currency, all three at once.

That is all that will take and I would not be surprised if more than 1/2 of the population don't make it through the transition.

Technology won't be the same either and will take a major step backwards.


I do believe world population will eventually plunge, but partly because of AI.

The thing about "pressure" as you describe, is that if often releases in an explosive manner. This is the same thing with economic bubbles, of which we are also sitting on several.


True, but it may still take a while before the real burst occurs.

Fiscal irresponsibility and insolvency, high rates of debased currency and inflation, high rates of welfare, increasing rates of immigration and homosexuality, and declining birth rates are all praexologically predictable given the size of our states and historically we already know where the road ends thanks to every the histories of every civilization which has come before, most notably Rome.


Rome is a great analogy but in my view we're at a stage of history comparable to the fall of the republic not the Empire. Under authoritarianism, a lot of the problems could be rectified with relative ease, so the upshot of crises should be the end of democracy not civilization.


Won't happen. We ain't colonizing shit.....except continents we left vacant and forgot existed for 1,000 years after the coming collapse occurs.


We could colonize under better government.
#14917099
starman2003 wrote:I do believe world population will eventually plunge, but partly because of AI.


Me Too

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starman2003 wrote:True, but it may still take a while before the real burst occurs.


Do explain.

starman2003 wrote:Rome is a great analogy but in my view we're at a stage of history comparable to the fall of the republic not the Empire. Under authoritarianism, a lot of the problems could be rectified with relative ease, so the upshot of crises should be the end of democracy not civilization.


I don't disagree with this as a possible scenario and have myself alluded to Trump and other populist movements being analogous to the period of the Gracchi in Rome, so I am sympathetic and if Spengler is right (who was a major influence on my thought), there is reason to believe we are heading headlong into Caesarianism.

This is quite possible.

However, like Spengler, this admission is nothing more than the admission that Western civilization is dying, for Caesarianism is the death pangs of a civilization, its last gasp of air, the rallying of whatever youthful passion for life remains within it.

starman2003 wrote:We could colonize under better government.


I still find it doubtful; though, this is also because I question whether there is even anything out there to be colonized anyway.

Though, the prospect of living on backward frontier worlds appeals to my Anarcho-Capitalist fanboy-of-firefly fantasies.

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#14917115
One Degree wrote:I think colonization could be practical fairly soon using frozen embryos and robot nannies.


I doubt this even more than the original proposition of colonialism in general. :lol:
#14917123
starman2003 wrote:the end of democracy not civilization. We could colonize under better government.

The end of democracy "as we know it." Unity is the present goal, look for America to redistribute wealth soon after we get rid of Trump. Other nations will follow suit and population may surge.

"Better government" will hopefully start with a moon colony devoted to mining and a mass driver to facilitate delivery of raw materials to earth orbit. Phase two will involve bare bones orbital industry to convert the raw materials to useful high tech / high strength components that require zero G manufacturing. Those materials and the technology bump that should accompany the first two stages will allow the construction of a "beanstalk" (orbital elevator) after that orbital colonization is cheap and easy.

Zam - "call me optimistic." ;)
#14917126
Zamuel wrote:Unity is the present goal, look for America to redistribute wealth soon after we get rid of Trump. Other nations will follow suit and population may surge.

"Better government" will hopefully start with a moon colony devoted to mining and a mass driver to facilitate delivery of raw materials to earth orbit. Phase two will involve bare bones orbital industry to convert the raw materials to useful high tech / high strength components that require zero G manufacturing. Those materials and the technology bump that should accompany the first two stages will allow the construction of a "beanstalk" (orbital elevator) after that orbital colonization is cheap and easy.


Imagevia Imgflip Meme Generator
#14917269
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Do explain.


For one thing, the national debt has been piling up for decades without any serious meltdown, yet. So while a big crisis will occur additional factors may have to trigger it. Maybe an oil supply interruption, coupled with withdrawal of foreign funds from US banks. Dunno when that may happen.


I don't disagree with this as a possible scenario and have myself alluded to Trump and other populist movements being analogous to the period of the Gracchi in Rome, so I am sympathetic and if Spengler is right (who was a major influence on my thought), there is reason to believe we are heading headlong into Caesarianism.


I saw The Decline of the West and I think the correct term is Caesarism. ;)

This is quite possible.


I've long thought so, but face it, Caesarism is antithetical to the whole judaeo-christian/individual uber alles/democratic value system. It'll take very major crisis to turn present society on its head but never fear, they're coming. :)

However, like Spengler, this admission is nothing more than the admission that Western civilization is dying, for Caesarianism is the death pangs of a civilization, its last gasp of air, the rallying of whatever youthful passion for life remains within it.


Few scholars believe Spengler's basic thesis, his biological analogy. I think the problem with past civilizations, ending with Caesarism, was insufficient technology.



I still find it doubtful; though, this is also because I question whether there is even anything out there to be colonized anyway.


I tend to doubt humans will do much colonizing except possibly someday on Venus, if it can be terraformed, as it has gravity similar to Earth's. Low Martian gravity would probably result in brittle bones. Maybe robots and specially designed cyborgs will do most of the colonizing.
#14917290
starman2003 wrote:the national debt has been piling up for decades without any serious meltdown, yet.


Yet indeed.

But my concerns regarding fiscal insolvency include more than national debt accrued. It is but a piece of the pie.

starman2003 wrote:Maybe an oil supply interruption, coupled with withdrawal of foreign funds from US banks.


Throw a global war in that mix and run away inflation and we will surely have an enjoyable cocktail.

starman2003 wrote:I saw The Decline of the West and I think the correct term is Caesarism.


Well since its a book and not a film, I'm sure you will find that the correct term was read rather than saw. ;)

starman2003 wrote:I've long thought so, but face it, Caesarism is antithetical to the whole judaeo-christian/individual uber alles/democratic value system. It'll take very major crisis to turn present society on its head but never fear, they're coming.


Well, one quip.

Individualism/Democracy is a product of the social contract worldview, which is opposed to historic Christianity.

I highly suggest Democracy: The God That Failed by H.H. Hoppe.

FYI

starman2003 wrote:Few scholars believe Spengler's basic thesis, his biological analogy. I think the problem with past civilizations, ending with Caesarism, was insufficient technology.


Ironically, Spengler counters this very claim in his work Man and Technics.


a lack of technology had nothing to do with past civilizations for our present state of technological progress is a unique result from the unique form-language and prime-symbol (boundless space) of the Faustian man. Indeed, when the west collapses (according to Spengler), future peoples with a different form language will look at western technological "achievements" and say to themselves "What was the point of that?"

They would neither understand or desire the technological mindset of the former west, it simply won't be in them.

starman2003 wrote:I tend to doubt humans will do much colonizing except possibly someday on Venus, if it can be terraformed, as it has gravity similar to Earth's. Low Martian gravity would probably result in brittle bones. Maybe robots and specially designed cyborgs will do most of the colonizing.


Well, Venus is too hot to even start the process (if scientists are to believed), and Mars has no real magnetic field which makes it basically impossible to terraform even if terraforming in general could even be accomplished in the first place (which is all hypothetical mental-masturbation).

I am just as skeptical/convinced that those planets are there-for-the-taking as I am skeptical/convinced of Sasquatch and the Flat Earth.

Don't know, don't care...

... and it ain't happening.

I'll bet you $50 and a six-pack on it.

Scout's honor.

8)
#14917556
Victoribus Spolia wrote:Throw a global war in that mix and run away inflation and we will surely have an enjoyable cocktail.


Add in certain effects of automation...

Individualism/Democracy is a product of the social contract worldview, which is opposed to historic Christianity.


In principle, both are opposed to Caesarism.

I highly suggest Democracy: The God That Failed by H.H. Hoppe.


I thought it was Communism the god that Failed.

Indeed, when the west collapses (according to Spengler), future peoples with a different form language will look at western technological "achievements" and say to themselves "What was the point of that?"


:lol: Technology was the key to western dominance over other cultures. I think it was Adam Smith who once noted that in the past, civilized societies were vulnerable to less civilized ones, such as barbarian Vandals, whereas civilization of his day was expanding at the expense of primitives. The reason was technology.

They would neither understand or desire the technological mindset of the former west, it simply won't be in them.


Unfortunately for Spengler's view, future intelligence may consist largely of AI, which naturally would have a somewhat different take on that. ;)



Well, Venus is too hot to even start the process (if scientists are to believed), and Mars has no real magnetic field which makes it basically impossible to terraform even if terraforming in general could even be accomplished in the first place (which is all hypothetical mental-masturbation).


Venus might be cooled by shading and a recent study concluded the Martian magnetosphere offers some protection from the solar wind. In any event, a terraformed Mrs would lose atmosphere at a rate of only about 1% in a million years.

... and it ain't happening.


No way it could happen under present government.
#14917694
Victoribus Spolia wrote:But my concerns regarding fiscal insolvency include more than national debt accrued. It is but a piece of the pie.

Private debt is a far bigger problem than national debt, unless the debt is owed in other currencies. It's the debt money system that is the problem, not the national debt.
Throw a global war in that mix and run away inflation and we will surely have an enjoyable cocktail.

The economic damage from inflation is derisory compared to the physical destruction of war.
I highly suggest Democracy: The God That Failed by H.H. Hoppe.

Hans-Hermann Hoppe is one of the most dishonest "intellectuals" who ever lived. Virtually everything he has written is absurd garbage.
Indeed, when the west collapses (according to Spengler), future peoples with a different form language will look at western technological "achievements" and say to themselves "What was the point of that?"

Then they will be fools, as the point is power.
They would neither understand or desire the technological mindset of the former west, it simply won't be in them.

Dreamer.
Well, Venus is too hot to even start the process (if scientists are to believed),

It could be cooled easily enough with shades at the L1 point. Its slow rotation, lack of water, and dense atmosphere are far bigger problems. Probably it will just be dismantled and the raw materials used to build free-orbiting habitats.
and Mars has no real magnetic field which makes it basically impossible to terraform even if terraforming in general could even be accomplished in the first place (which is all hypothetical mental-masturbation).

Nope. A magnetic field is not necessary if the atmosphere is thick enough, so it's not a deal-breaker. Mars would need a much thicker atmosphere anyway to make it warm enough for terraforming. It is an excellent candidate for terraforming because its day is very similar to ours, it gets enough insolation to be in the Goldilocks zone, and its gravity is neither too low to hold an atmosphere nor too high for comfort.
... and it ain't happening.

It is, assuming SAI -- which, unlike your God, will actually exist -- does not call the whole thing off.
#14918049
Truth To Power wrote:Then they will be fools, as the point is power.


Of course, as I pointed out, technology is essential for that.


Its slow rotation, lack of water, and dense atmosphere are far bigger problems. Probably it will just be dismantled and the raw materials used to build free-orbiting habitats.


Assuming humans as they currently are will be future colonists--which is open to some doubt--Venus may hold considerable promise. Among other solar system bodies, its gravity is most like ours. If you can dismantle a planet, you could probably more easily bring hydrogen to it, after using bacteria to split up CO2 (following shading) to form water. As for rotation, IIRC that can be speeded up by moving mass closer to the poles.


It is an excellent candidate for terraforming because its day is very similar to ours, it gets enough insolation to be in the Goldilocks zone, and its gravity is neither too low to hold an atmosphere nor too high for comfort.


Unfortunately insolation, especially under aphelic conditions, is pretty poor relative to what Earth gets. And a serious potential problem with Martian gravity--just 38% of ours--is it could make bones brittle. People born there might grow 9 feet tall yet have weak bones and muscles, causing unforeseen health problems. I dunooo...we evolved under Earthly conditions and may not fare well under martian ones. At least Venus has sufficient(?) gravity.
Last edited by starman2003 on 27 May 2018 10:44, edited 1 time in total.
#14918080
starman2003 wrote:Of course, as I pointed out, technology is essential for that.

Indeed … Technology that is impossible to achieve in a planetary environment. Orbital industry in "0-G" is the only solution.

may not fare well under martian ones. At least Venus has sufficient(?) gravity.

Venus and Mars are eventual possibilities but their colonization will not be an immediate priority.
Building habitats is a much cheaper and more suitable, not to mention immediate, alternative.

It is, assuming SAI -- which, unlike your God, will actually exist -- does not call the whole thing off]

SAI is going to be a distant probability for a while. Conventional AI will do the job for now and will likely lead the way to a stable and useful development of SAI.

"The future is bright and sparkles with starlight."

Zam 8)
#14918828
TTP,

sometimes you write good stuff that I enjoy and I usually agree with like 90% of the shit you say on POFO, but your bellicose rhetoric and infantile attempts at provocation are reminiscient of the gnats buzzing around my hotdog at a local BBQ.

I would actually enjoy having debates with you because you seem quite informed and indeed I have enjoyed crossing swords with you on occasion, but if only you refrained from your strange and difficult to follow format of responding to MANY-very-small-quote-portions (which makes anything you write an utter eye-sore) and from your Trump-esque attempts to instigate flame-wars, I would likely enjoy debating with you often and for our mutual edification.

Note the following:

Truth To Power wrote:Hans-Hermann Hoppe is one of the most dishonest "intellectuals" who ever lived. Virtually everything he has written is absurd garbage.


:violin:

I mean seriously? Boo-hoo.

If you want to debate the substance of his ideas sometime, great. But what was the point in this substance-less and vitriolic drivel?

Post tantrums somewhere else.



Truth To Power wrote:It is, assuming SAI -- which, unlike your God, will actually exist -- does not call the whole thing off.


:lol:

Where did this even come from?

I know my Theism triggers you, but bringing it up out of nowhere to instigate some sort of reaction?

Its like i'm back at the highschool lunch table all over again.


Like I said, I would love to debate you on any subject really, whether it be the Existence of God, economics, history, philosophy, whatever. I really would, and I don't usually jump on the bitchy-format-Nazi-bandwagon, but holy fuck dude just take the corporate advice and quit posting those eyes sores and quit with the juvenile stick-pokes.

Whats the point of debating on POFO if no one will want to engage with you anymore?

You are becoming the next POD if you aren't already and that is not a compliment.

Take it from the dude that would actually enjoy debating with you and agrees with most of the shit you say.

Otherwise, I am going to just keep cringing (and snickering) at these silly attempts to instigate thread battles. :D
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