What's a Third Position? - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14902525
Zamuel wrote:Oh good, you're getting desperate. So lets bring medieval superstition into the equation? :?: That don't cut it.

The fact is your slaves are the people who initiated a technocracy in the first place, controlled it's development, and ultimately profited from it. If they are "Slaves" then they are also their own masters. Last time I looked that qualified them as - Free men -.

Stop wiggling so much, you've been hooked and landed. Angels (fallen or otherwise) are not going to help you. But Pofo is a catch and release zone so ... away you go (fish never seem to learn do they.)

Zam

Do you realise you are talking about an proposed utopia that never happened as if it was something that did happen? And you think I am the superstitious one? :roll:
#14902530
SolarCross wrote:Do you realise you are talking about an proposed utopia that never happened as if it was something that did happen? And you think I am the superstitious one? :roll:

? I proposed a third position dynamic that I think is likely to happen in the foreseeable future. How you turned that into a nonexistent utopia is beyond my kin. As for superstition you're the one posting pictures of the devil and proposing he enslaves those involved in cooperative endeavors ... not me. Maybe consult your Dr. about increasing the meds? :eek:

Zam
#14902535
@SolarCross

No, thats so untrue its not even funny. For all states, power projection is already hard. The idea that totalitarian states will magically do better is ridiculous especially considering that totalitariam states seek to control every aspect of society. This of course is physically impossible let alone plausible as an idea. No state has full control over its peoples, even North Korea despite its small size is inable to project enough power to prevent smuggling from occuring within the country.

The state of 1984 on the other hand has de facto control over population and has such a great deal of power over its people that it ends up being too unrealistic. Totalitarian regimes are far more messier than the cold, ordered automations which runs the state.

It seems to me that you think that totalitarian states and the people that run them are inhuman, possessed by an evil force known in the Western world as Satan which is the explanation for why totalitarian states do, in your eyes, particularly horrible things. What you fail to realize is that empires and states have been doing the things you attribute specifically to totalitarian states for decades beginning with the Assyrians.

What all those empires had in common was the maintenance of power for power's sake and many empires his these intentions through religion or false justifications (i.e. divine right to rule and so forth) exactly like totalitarian states. There is nothing special about this form of violence and nothing special about people rising to power only to simply maintain it for no reason despite being against their interests.
#14902536
@SolarCross

The ideal Austrian economic system never happened. Does that mean talking about Austrian economics is a complete waste of time?

Also no one is arguing as if it did happen, only that the idea works and that it isn't totalitarian. That is all we're saying.
#14902625
Zamuel wrote:? I proposed a third position dynamic that I think is likely to happen in the foreseeable future. How you turned that into a nonexistent utopia is beyond my kin. As for superstition you're the one posting pictures of the devil and proposing he enslaves those involved in cooperative endeavors ... not me. Maybe consult your Dr. about increasing the meds? :eek:

Zam

If I need meds, Mr magical utopia which never existed, you need a priest. :excited: :lol:

Image

@Oxymandias
You say governance is always "hard", and for sure one is not a governor unless one employs soldiers and soldiers are people who specialise in killing people and that is a pretty hard thing. I gave a criteria for distinguishing between an ordinary human pursuit of power which included "surviving enemies" and which surely means being able to kill them, as a soldier does, and something satanic. Yes humans can be hard bastards and governors most of all. I think if you examine socialist regimes closely what emerges is exactly something inhuman governing this phenomena. There is a deep perversity there that goes well beyond any human hardness. I have already made this point why do I need to repeat it?

Look at it this way let's compare Her Majesty QE2's regime vs any communist regime. Is HM's regime "hard"? In human terms yes in satanic terms no. She personally owns 16 different nation states (including the one I live in), that is an enormous amount of real estate, She has nukes and soldiers, tanks, fighting planes, special ops like the SAS, She has secret policemen and assassins (the infamous MI5 and MI6) and Her dynasty has been ruling over millions for centuries. For all her hard assets though those She governs are pretty relaxed, happy and generally have good vibes for Her regime. Not always for sure because disagreements are always possible for mostly it is a well loved regime. And it is a regime that still exists. The first rule of power is survive.

Now in contrast the communist regimes turn up torture as many people as possible then blow out like a candle in the wind. In human terms these regimes are terrible failures in every way because not only are they inhumanly cruel but because they are weak and can't survive for very long. In satanic terms they are a success though because they war against heaven and torture humans to get at God.

Now it must be asked if totalitarians really just want power in a human way why is it they don't imitate regimes like HM's regime which are successful and well loved rather than Lenin or whoever? They stubbornly choose both weakness and inhuman cruelty over the normal human pursuit of success. As an atheist I really want to attribute this to profound stupidity or mental illness but it doesn't really fit. Communists are always such devious liars so they can't really be retarded as being a reflexive liar requires some intelligence neither does mental illness quite cover it because there is too much infernal purpose there. So what else can we make of people who even now after all the history that has happened want to be communists? Surely they serve some evil god, Satan as the Christians call him, with a grudge against humanity.
Last edited by SolarCross on 03 Apr 2018 18:32, edited 2 times in total.
#14902630
I have no idea how militant and oppressive capitalism somehow became a separate position from capitalism. Which is what “third position” seems to mean.
#14902635
What's a Third Position?

In the Kama Sutra, the third position is 'The Perfumed Garden'.


:|
#14902707
@SolarCross

Soldiers are humans as well and must be well-compensated for being used in power projection. Furthermore, you can use soldiers extensively to maintain power because then you become reliant on them for action and once that occurs then all it takes is just one ambitious power hungry soldier to gather his friends and overthrow you. This is why regimes use ideology and presentation to portray a sense of power they don’t actually have over the population.

The Soviet Union is equally lived by the people of Russia and many feel nostalgic towards it. Many Russians including those who have never lived in the Soviet Union all prefer it over the current regime and many see it as having developed Russia and made it into a superpower. The Soviet Union is just as loved by Russia as HM’s government is lived by the British. The only difference between them is that you are not aware of that there are any positive thoughts on the Soviet Union or that there are any good things that occurred during the reign of the Soviets.

For example, I bet you are unaware that the Soviet Union actually industrialized quicker than the US, that Soviet education was more developed than America’s at the time, that (at least before Stalin) ideas to improve the government were tolerated, and that had they utilized the theory put forth by Leonid Kantorovich, a Soviet mathematician, called linear programming (a method of solving optimization problems perfectly suited to allocating resources throughout an economy) most of the problems with the Soviet economy could be solved.

Meanwhile let’s not forget the thousands of atrocities that HM’s government committed, especially regarding the starvation of Ireland which by all accounts should be considered as an act perpetuated by the devil.

Your entire idea is solely based on ignorance of totalitarian regimes and your quick impression of them. Even your reasoning is completely faulty. You should learn more about socialism and communism before thinking of another “theory” again SolarCross.
#14902718
@Oxymandias
So you support Communism and 1932 Technocracy? But you say they are completely different things? (Is that sulphur and brimstone I can smell? Is that the buzzing of flies I can hear?)
#14902729
@SolarCross

I don’t support Communism and I have told you this before. I simply stated that there is nothing inhuman about the Soviet Union and that it is just as loved as HM’s government by its population. That is all there is to it.

Furthermore you can be communist and a technocrat at the same time. Technocracy only works in a post-scarcity society whilst Communism along with Capitalism can only function in scarcity societies (i.e. the current state of our world for everyone except maybe America). This is why I am both a Capitalist and a Technocrat.

I’d like it if you stopped misrepresenting my posts/ignoring them.
#14903219
ingliz wrote:In the Kama Sutra, the third position is 'The Perfumed Garden'.


The Perfumed Garden is actually a separate work written by Sheikh Nafzawi and is often sold in a bundle of three with the Kama Sutra and Ananga Ranga

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perfumed_Garden
#14904359
Oxymandias wrote:You seem remarkably knowledgeable about the book. A little too knowledgeable if you ask me....


I'm going on six kids...how do you think that happened? by Osmosis? :excited:
#14905292
Oxymandias wrote:@B0ycey

Thank you for the clarification.

Also I feel offended that you called Rei a Technocrat. As an actual Technocrat I would like you not to associate it with fascism given that it is directly opposed to fascism.

I think that historically technocracy might have a fascist /third position connotation , given its association with the neosocialism of the National Popular Rally . In my opinion , the mistake that the original third position made was aligning itself with the Third Reich . If not for this , it would I expect be considered to have been a respectable ideology within the Non-Alligned Movement .
#14905302
@Deutschmania

Simply because an ideology uses the word "technocrat" doesn't mean it's actually Technocracy. Technocrat these days means an engineer in a government position when this is not the case for Technocracy itself. Technocratically planned economy as a whole is a paradoxical concept because Technocracy cannot work in a scarcity economy.
#14905933
Oxymandias wrote:@Deutschmania

Simply because an ideology uses the word "technocrat" doesn't mean it's actually Technocracy. Technocrat these days means an engineer in a government position when this is not the case for Technocracy itself. Technocratically planned economy as a whole is a paradoxical concept because Technocracy cannot work in a scarcity economy.

How is this not a "no true Scotsman " fallacy argument ?
For reference , this is the definition of Technocracy I am going by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy .
#14905951
@Deutschmania

I know what a No True Scotsman fallacy is thank you very much. I don't need a video to explain to me what it is.

The issue is that this is not the type of Technocracy we've been discussing this entire thread thereby making it irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Furthermore you referred to the historical definition of Technocracy and there was no other Technocracy outside of that which was Technocracy Inc. and coincidentally this is exactly the type of Technocracy we are discussing. Therefore my response still stands nonetheless.

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