[Oxymandias]

Rei sounds like a GEORGOUS Balck Weeboo Woman.

Strong and independent too.

[Albert]

I wound tell you guys how she looks but you are not gentleman so I wont.

[Zamuel]

you should think of it being the wild west frontier in space rather than soviet gulags in space. The wild west frontier except without the indians to get underfoot, at least until we encounter aliens.

Wild west? Gulags? Indians? Aliens? Someone has been watching to many "Space Opera" Sci-fi movies. Maybe try - Apollo 13 - for a more realistic POV.

Cooperative effort does not equal "Totalitarianism." Democracy is divisive and Communism is too inefficient for a completely hostile environment. A "Third Position" dynamic will be necessary. Technocracy offers (I think) a solution to the faults that disqualify those two systems. AND it is ideally suited to planned communities designed to provide excess resources.

If you think Technocracy is not a "Third Position" dynamic? Then tell us why ... If you just want to slag the general concept, that might be better done in it's own forum.

Oh yeah - "Rei Lives!"

Zam

[SolarCross]

It isn't co-operation if you have to do as you are told by the "system".

There aren't any totalitarian systems out there that have proven capable of working better than freedom. Freedom has won every contest. At one time the marxists of one type or another conquored a sizable chunk of the world now they are all gone but that is x million what the technocrats accomplished. There is nothing in it, there are not enough swinging dicks seduced by it enough to brutalise anyone else into submitting to it so it won't happen.

Maybe we should be looking at loosening the thumbscrews on society not tightening them.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

The Technate doesn't force anyone to do anything. By it's nature, it is voluntary. You can't even implement a Technate without everyone voluntarily wanting one.

Not only that but I doubt that there wouldn't be no one who wants to go to space. Even if the entire population isn't interested in space (which is extremely unlikely), at least the people who designed the effing technology that allows us to colonize space would at least give it a go.

[SolarCross]

The Technate doesn't force anyone to do anything. By it's nature, it is voluntary. You can't even implement a Technate without everyone voluntarily wanting one.

So it won't happen, ever. There is no point talking about a magical utopia in which everyone agrees to do as they are told that will never exist.

[Zamuel]

It isn't co-operation if you have to do as you are told by the "system".

So you think a carpentry crew should build your house without a blueprint? Blueprints are very totalitarian you know.

A technocratic "system" exists to enhance cooperative efficiency and avoid waste, not to victimize anyone.

Zam

[SolarCross]

So you think a carpentry crew should build your house without a blueprint? Blueprints are very totalitarian you know.

No they are not. Architects, producers, craftsmen, financiers and clients all collaborate in a complex network of negotiations to build a house. The crafting of blueprints is the architects offering to that process. Consent is negotiated by all parties throughout the process. At least so it is in a free society. Slaves obey or are beaten, freemen negotiate and this is trade. Technocrats are explicit in wanting to abolish trade and this is literally a restatement of the marxian's desire to abolish private property and to the same end as a vector towards abolishing consent. The abolition of consent is totalitarianism.

A technocratic "system" exists to enhance cooperative efficiency and avoid waste, not to victimize anyone.

Zam

No it doesn't that is just the sugar coating, the deception, it is there is exactly to reduce humans to the status of slaves. There is no other use for it.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

No, it can and I have discussed this with you before, you just ignored most of my posts.

People will agree because it is within their own personal interests to do so, not because they are forced to. They will advocate for Technocracy because they wish for a higher degree of freedom than what is currently possible. That is why some may accept Technocracy.

[Zamuel]

it is there is exactly to reduce humans to the status of slaves.

Just whose slaves are they then?

Zam

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

No they are not. Architects, producers, craftsmen, financiers and clients all collaborate in a complex network of negotiations to build a house. The crafting of blueprints is the architects offering to that process. Consent is negotiated by all parties throughout the process.

That's literally how Technocracy Inc. gained followers and how it convinces them. Everything is done through consent and negotiation yet apparently for you that's authoritarian.

Slaves obey or are beaten, freemen negotiate and this is trade. Technocrats are explicit in wanting to abolish trade and this is literally a restatement of the marxian's desire to abolish private property and to the same end as a vector towards abolishing consent. The abolition of consent is totalitarianism.

Technocracy seeks to abolish trade because it is unnecessary in a post-scarcity society. Basically, trade becomes unnecessary and even inefficient in a post-scarcity society. We are not talking about scarcity here where resources are limited. In Technocracy, you get to have your cake and eat it too.

Everything in Technocracy requires consent to function. People have to want to be in a Technate for it to work. This is why you let people go when they don't want to be apart of the Technate, because having people who don't want to live in a Technate endangers it.

No it doesn't that is just the sugar coating, the deception, it is there is exactly to reduce humans to the status of slaves. There is no other use for it.

You happen to fracking realize that you are more of a slave under capitalism than you will ever be in a Technate. In a Technate you have access to any resources you want with everyone only doing 3 hours of work a day just to keep the Technate running and distributing resources to you. It's a collaborative experience that benefits everyone.

[SolarCross]

Just whose slaves are they then?

Zam

► Show Spoiler

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

I simply cannot take you seriously.

[SolarCross]

@Oxymandias
So I go to gulag now?
------
In Orwell's 1984 the party Ingsoc did all it did to enslave humanity to Big Brother, but what you may not have noticed was that Big Brother wasn't an actual real life person. So the question who is wearing "the boot that stamps down on a human face forever"? Boots don't mash faces by themselves they are just inanimate instruments, Ingsoc is an inanimate instrument, so who is willing all that into being? Clearly it must have intelligence, a malevolent will and not be human... Personally as an atheist I don't have any concepts of my own that allow me to identify what being could have those properties but the religious people do...
The Christians would recognise it as Satan, Zorostrians as Ahriman, well every religion just about has a name for malevolent non-human entities. Is it such a stretch to imagine such creatures might actually exist? Given recent history, especially concerning totalitarianism something is going down clearly.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

There are no labor camps in Technocracy because it's entire purpose is to liberate people from labor. The goal of Technocracy is to allow people the most minimum amount of work possible. The issue is that Technocracy isn't fascist at all. You see fervently determined to believe that Technocracy is totalitarian despite all evidence pointing towards the contrary.

1984 was a book made to provide laymen such as yourself the experience or atmosphere of a future fascist, totalitarian state. It does not accurately reflect how a modern totalitarian state functions, only what a possible totalitarian state, with totalitarianism taken to it's logical limits using future technology could be like. If you read about life in the Soviet Union, you would know that, while 1984 nails the atmosphere and feeling those under the Soviet Union felt, it didn't accurately describe the Soviet Union's administration.

Therefore this idea that any form of centralized state (because if you are willing to say Technocracy is totalitarian, anything you don't like can be totalitarian) are all secretly ruled by Satan is based on pure fantasy.

[SolarCross]

@SolarCross

There are no labor camps in Technocracy because it's entire purpose is to liberate people from labor. The goal of Technocracy is to allow people the most minimum amount of work possible. The issue is that Technocracy isn't fascist at all. You see fervently determined to believe that Technocracy is totalitarian despite all evidence pointing towards the contrary.

1984 was a book made to provide laymen such as yourself the experience or atmosphere of a future fascist, totalitarian state. It does not accurately reflect how a modern totalitarian state functions, only what a possible totalitarian state, with totalitarianism taken to it's logical limits using future technology could be like. If you read about life in the Soviet Union, you would know that, while 1984 nails the atmosphere and feeling those under the Soviet Union felt, it didn't accurately describe the Soviet Union's administration.

Therefore this idea that any form of centralized state (because if you are willing to say Technocracy is totalitarian, anything you don't like can be totalitarian) are all secretly ruled by Satan is based on pure fantasy.

On technocracy: you are saying an imaginary system will solve by magic whatever issues anyone can imagine and it will be so great everyone will just consent to everything. Fine magical utopias which don't exist can be or do whatever the devotees can imagine and magical utopias make for tempting bait, but the proposed means aren't that original it's basically totalitarian collectivism + central planning + "energy accounting" + magic and we have see others peddle a very similar product only delivery was particularly foul compared with the advertising. The only original bit is the energy accounting the rest could have been plagiarised from the Communist Manifesto. And energy accounting just amounts to rationing really except using joules as a metric instead of kilos or dollars. The promise is false.

1984 was a warning about socialist totalitarian collectivism about what it is really about what it would be like if it happened in Britain. As you say it reflects very well the spirit of the various totalitarian regimes which marred the 20th century which still mar Cuba and North Korea here in the 21st. However who is it for? This is where I have fallen on the Satan hypothesis, in trying to figure out why any human would plot such convoluted and obscene large scale infamy. Humans are capable of nastiness no doubt but there is something beyond human about the totalitarian regimes and the totalitarian advocates which makes me seriously wonder if there isn't something else less human behind it. As I say I am reaching outside of the conceptual toolbox I was raised on, I was not raised to believe in demons and angels. It's like being a sober scientific rationalist and wandering into the film of the Exorcist. Have you seen it? There is a girl or young woman who raves and utters obscenities and self harms. She has a terrible complexion and well behaves abominably. The priests treat is straight away as daemonic possession but rationalist me hypothetically turning up to watch I don't see that at first so I call it mental illness. That's my initial hypothesis, my first iteration, to explain away this profound abnormality, call it mental illness. I've been holding this hypothesis about all most of the commies here on pofo, they are just crazy right? They are just crazy and that is what motivates them. But as the film goes on the symptoms get worse and more strange in fact they get impossible, the bed levitates and her head does a 360 degree turn. "Crazy" is a narrative that increasingly just doesn't seem to fit the facts. So what else is there? As weird as it sounds even to me daemonic possession just seems to fit, better than mental illness all the totalitarian regimes communism, national socialism etc. It's inhuman malevolence, inhuman because no human including the advocates could really benefit from it or could plot it. So that is my hypothesis now how to test it?

[Oxymandias]

On technocracy: you are saying an imaginary system will solve by magic whatever issues anyone can imagine and it will be so great everyone will just consent to everything. Fine magical utopias which don't exist can be or do whatever the devotees can imagine and magical utopias make for tempting bait, but the proposed means aren't that original it's basically totalitarian collectivism + central planning + "energy accounting" + magic and we have see others peddle a very similar product only delivery was particularly foul compared with the advertising. The only original bit is the energy accounting the rest could have been plagiarised from the Communist Manifesto. And energy accounting just amounts to rationing really except using joules as a metric instead of kilos or dollars. The promise is false.

I have spoken to you and destroyed this argument so many times and I don't intend on doing it again. You have given zero evidence to support your assertion. I explained energy accounting, I explained the voluntary nature of Technocracy, I disproved your assertion that Technocracy "falsely advertises", I explained how Technocracy is actually freer than anything under a scarcity economy, and I have given you articles that thoroughly explain Technocracy as backup for the concepts I brought forth. I will not respond to anymore to anything you say regarding Technocracy. You've become a joke at this point, regurgitating the same baseless arguments over and over again.

1984 was a warning about socialist totalitarian collectivism about what it is really about what it would be like if it happened in Britain. As you say it reflects very well the spirit of the various totalitarian regimes which marred the 20th century which still mar Cuba and North Korea here in the 21st. However who is it for? This is where I have fallen on the Satan hypothesis, in trying to figure out why any human would plot such convoluted and obscene large scale infamy. Humans are capable of nastiness no doubt but there is something beyond human about the totalitarian regimes and the totalitarian advocates which makes me seriously wonder if there isn't something else less human behind it. As I say I am reaching outside of the conceptual toolbox I was raised on, I was not raised to believe in demons and angels. It's like being a sober scientific rationalist and wandering into the film of the Exorcist. Have you seen it? There is a girl or young woman who raves and utters obscenities and self harms. She has a terrible complexion and well behaves abominably. The priests treat is straight away as daemonic possession but rationalist me hypothetically turning up to watch I don't see that at first so I call it mental illness. That's my initial hypothesis, my first iteration, to explain away this profound abnormality, call it mental illness. I've been holding this hypothesis about all most of the commies here on pofo, they are just crazy right? They are just crazy and that is what motivates them. But as the film goes on the symptoms get worse and more strange in fact they get impossible, the bed levitates and her head does a 360 degree turn. "Crazy" is a narrative that increasingly just doesn't seem to fit the facts. So what else is there? As weird as it sounds even to me daemonic possession just seems to fit, better than mental illness all the totalitarian regimes communism, national socialism etc. It's inhuman malevolence, inhuman because no human including the advocates could really benefit from it or could plot it. So that is my hypothesis now how to test it?

1984 is a science fiction novel by a person who never set foot on the soil of a totalitarian country and is based solely on speculation and second-hand accounts while implementing futuristic elements to it. 1984 draws it's brilliance from taking totalitarian ideology to it's logical extreme and revealing exactly what a totalitarian government's end goal is. It is a cautionary tale, a cautionary tale of what could happen in the future given society's current trends. It is not however an accurate description of how totalitarian governments function. I assure totalitarian governments are more human that you give them credit for. Totalitarian governments simply appear inhuman but they do this on purpose.

Totalitarian governments appear so thoroughly inhuman, incomprehensible because it allows them to assert god-like stature in the eye of the individual. By doing so, the state becomes what it has longed for, the dominant entity in the public conscious of the people along with seem so powerful and unbeatable that even if there is a rebellion, it certainly would have low morale. However most totalitarian governments fail at this because that would require them having an amount of power that is impossible for state to hold unless the people ruled over voluntarily give that power to the state. This almost never happens of course.

[annatar1914]

I have spoken to you and destroyed this argument so many times and I don't intend on doing it again. You have given zero evidence to support your assertion. I explained energy accounting, I explained the voluntary nature of Technocracy, I disproved your assertion that Technocracy "falsely advertises", I explained how Technocracy is actually freer than anything under a scarcity economy, and I have given you articles that thoroughly explain Technocracy as backup for the concepts I brought forth. I will not respond to anymore to anything you say regarding Technocracy. You've become a joke at this point, regurgitating the same baseless arguments over and over again.



1984 is a science fiction novel by a person who never set foot on the soil of a totalitarian country and is based solely on speculation and second-hand accounts while implementing futuristic elements to it. 1984 draws it's brilliance from taking totalitarian ideology to it's logical extreme and revealing exactly what a totalitarian government's end goal is. It is a cautionary tale, a cautionary tale of what could happen in the future given society's current trends. It is not however an accurate description of how totalitarian governments function. I assure totalitarian governments are more human that you give them credit for. Totalitarian governments simply appear inhuman but they do this on purpose.

Totalitarian governments appear so thoroughly inhuman, incomprehensible because it allows them to assert god-like stature in the eye of the individual. By doing so, the state becomes what it has longed for, the dominant entity in the public conscious of the people along with seem so powerful and unbeatable that even if there is a rebellion, it certainly would have low morale. However most totalitarian governments fail at this because that would require them having an amount of power that is impossible for state to hold unless the people ruled over voluntarily give that power to the state. This almost never happens of course.

And, Orwell was a Socialist, which fact must no doubt really leave people like Solar Cross scratching their head. But some people don't know what Socialism, Capitalism, or Totalitarianism really is, and is not.

[SolarCross]

@Oxymandias

In fact real life totalitarian regimes are considerably worse than 1984. You are trying to rationalise it and I understand that because I have been doing that too for years, we tell ourselves they just want power, its just a stratagem to get power. Sure it sort of sounds plausible, but why do all these random people still so desperate to get it all going again, gulags and all? Even if they get what they are aiming for then they are all fucked too. Why would turkeys vote for Christmas?

Go back to the power motive, did it not occur to you that the communists aren't the only ones to desire power, actually everyone desires power and every regime in history has sought power but yet most are not complete beasts about it.

Why does a human want power? To live longer, have more wealth, have a comfortable life, survive enemies, protect a legacy, make beautiful things, be honoured for greatness, prestige etc.

Why does Satan want power? In the Christian view to war against heaven, to torment mankind as a way to punish God.

So really which fits the spirit of the communist's power lust? Fredrick the Great wanted power, Ghengis Khan wanted power but even the latter for all his ferocity and ruthlessness is more human than Lenin and the rest.

Just don't dismiss it out of hand, people the world over throughout all of history have entertained in all seriousness the god hypothesis that we are not alone in the universe, aside from animals, there are non-human intelligences, gods, demons and angels. How can so many people be wrong about that? And if they exist then why wouldn't they be behind the most repellent regimes in history just as the good gods may be behind the most benign?

----------

And, Orwell was a Socialist, which fact must no doubt really leave people like Solar Cross scratching their head. But some people don't know what Socialism, Capitalism, or Totalitarianism really is, and is not.

Orwell was a truthseeker, a journalist, exploring the world and people. To know a thing especially as a journalist you sometimes have to wear it, like going under cover. He is a "socialist" yet manages to be one of the most eloquent critics of it. You affect an arrogant tone, but it is you that doesn't really understand anything. Orwell was a considerably more complex and contradictory person than you realise.

Was George Orwell a patriot or a traitor?

[Zamuel]

it is there is exactly to reduce humans to the status of slaves.”

"Just whose slaves are they then?

► Show Spoiler

Oh good, you're getting desperate. So lets bring medieval superstition into the equation? That don't cut it.

The fact is your slaves are the people who initiated a technocracy in the first place, controlled it's development, and ultimately profited from it. If they are "Slaves" then they are also their own masters. Last time I looked that qualified them as - Free men -.

Stop wiggling so much, you've been hooked and landed. Angels (fallen or otherwise) are not going to help you. But Pofo is a catch and release zone so ... away you go (fish never seem to learn do they.)

Zam