[Fasces]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/sg/blog ... manization

You can't even read Chinese, so I see no reason whatsoever you have any authority to recognize what Chinese propaganda even looks like or advocates beyond a few cherry-picked examples from tabloids (and I could go on thedonald.win to pick out similar quotes and claim America is fascist) - so your 14 points shit is dead in the water right there. (Putting aside that the genesis of that article was a political hitpiece intended to depict George W. Bush as fascist and hardly an authoritative or qualified examination of fascist ideology).

If you want nuance, unlike most in this thread who are starting from the conclusions of 'China is bad fascism' and frantically googling to find justifications for that belief.

[Rugoz]

The only legal political entities in the PRC are those associated with the United Front. It is their own view, not mine. They see a pluralistic society as a weakness because it gives two groups power to divide and conquer - foreign states and domestic oligarchs. You can hardly have an election in the West without people complaining of foreign interference or corporate interference through PACs, so this seems like a logical conclusion world-over. I'm not defending their view points, just explaining it. If you want to understand China, you'd do good to try to understand them from their own point of view rather than just being satisfied with trying to justify calling them fascist because its synonymous with 'bad'.

Western societies are completely open and even then foreign interference is close to irrelevant. China in contrast is shut off from the rest of the world (you have to wonder why, maybe the propaganda doesn't hold up to scrunity?). And we're talking about workers here, it's not like oligarchs are going to support their cause. Of course the question is why oligarchs exist in a presumably communist society to begin with.

It says nothing about the political or social development of a state, the character of the national economy, and the material conditions of that state. It is a useless number for any sort of discussion about national development. Taiwan and Spain have similar levels of GDP per capita - what does that figure, without looking anything else, tell you about development, infrastructure, major industries, economic faultlines, etc? It is useless to base your entire analysis of a country, especially one like China which explicitly follows a regional model of development where local economic rights, investment, and industries are starkly different from province to province and city to city, on a single number - which is what you're doing.

Two countries with the same GDP per capita have inevitably similar levels of capital (physical of which infrastructure is a part of and human) and productivity. You're not the first amateur Marxists to claim to know better than the entire economics profession. Frankly I'm tired of it. I already provided regional GDP levels. If you find a better indictator for economic development, propose one and provide the numbers.

And in 1949, the developmental situation in China was absolutely comparable to pre-industrial Europe.

Maybe. Definitely not in 2020 though.

[Fasces]

China in contrast is shut off from the rest of the world (you have to wonder why, maybe the propaganda doesn't hold up to scrunity?).

No, it isn't. I'm literally, this second, writing to you from my office in Qingdao. There are tens of thousands of foreigners in this city, hundreds of thousands across China. There are livestreamers on youtube you can watch, if you like.

How many thousands of Chinese students go abroad and then return home? Tourists? Business people?

The frank fact, as a citizen of Spain and the USA, is that day to day life in China, Spain, or the United States is indistinguishable (with maybe a slightly lower police presence in China, if anything, compared to the USA) - and outside the obvious cultural and linguistic differences.

Two countries with the same GDP per capita have inevitably similar levels of capital (physical of which infrastructure is a part of and human) and productivity. You're not the first amateur Marxists to claim to know better than the entire economics profession.

Literally no economist would agree with you that you can substitute GDP as a measure of national and economic development. Europe and the United States are largely service-based economies, while China remains a manufacturing and agricultural economy - and development is highly regionalized based on provincial investment, the city tier system, and so on. There are parts of China that are still stuck in the 1940s, especially in rural regions.

[Rugoz]

No, it isn't. I'm literally, this second, writing to you from my office in Qingdao. There are tens of thousands of foreigners in this city, hundreds of thousands across China. There are livestreamers on youtube you can watch, if you like.

If you know how to bypass the great firewall.

Literally no economist would agree with you that you can substitute GDP as a measure of national and economic development.

[Fasces]

If you know how to bypass the great firewall.

I have yet to meet a Chinese person without access to a VPN. Having one isn't illegal. There are services that advertise on WeChat. I paid for mine using Alipay.

Incidentally, you don't need a VPN to access sites like these. The fundamental truth is that just like you have zero interest in engaging with the Chinese on their social media platforms like QQ or Weibo - despite being perfectly free to do so - most Chinese have a similar level of interest with engaging on sites like Facebook. You can't call it a closed society just because you don't give a damn enough to engage these people in conversation.

[Godstud]

@Fasces You have to understand that every time someone in the Western world doesn't like what you are saying, they make these claims of "being shut off from the rest of the world". I get this when I tell people about Thailand. They don't like their claims being wrong, or that people in some of the Eastern countries are having success. I think it's a form of ethnocentrism.

I have a high school friend, who is a school teacher, in Ningbo.


@Rugoz
GDP Is Not a Measure of Human Well-Being
Economic growth has raised living standards around the world. However, modern economies have lost sight of the fact that the standard metric of economic growth, gross domestic product (GDP), merely measures the size of a nation’s economy and doesn’t reflect a nation’s welfare. Yet policymakers and economists often treat GDP, or GDP per capita in some cases, as an all-encompassing unit to signify a nation’s development, combining its economic prosperity and societal well-being. As a result, policies that result in economic growth are seen to be beneficial for society.

We know now that the story is not so simple – that focusing exclusively on GDP and economic gain to measure development ignores the negative effects of economic growth on society, such as climate change and income inequality. It’s time to acknowledge the limitations of GDP and expand our measure development so that it takes into account a society’s quality of life.

A number of countries are starting to do this. India, for instance, where we both work advising the government, is developing an Ease of Living Index, which measures quality of life, economic ability and sustainability.
https://hbr.org/2019/10/gdp-is-not-a-me ... well-being

[Unthinking Majority]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/sg/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201811/the-5-steps-dehumanization

You can't even read Chinese, so I see no reason whatsoever you have any authority to recognize what Chinese propaganda even looks like or advocates beyond a few cherry-picked examples from tabloids (and I could go on thedonald.win to pick out similar quotes and claim America is fascist) - so your 14 points shit is dead in the water right there. (Putting aside that the genesis of that article was a political hitpiece intended to depict George W. Bush as fascist and hardly an authoritative or qualified examination of fascist ideology).

If you want nuance, unlike most in this thread who are starting from the conclusions of 'China is bad fascism' and frantically googling to find justifications for that belief.

My primary concern above anything else is that the CCP means to do to myself, my family, my country, and my countrymen great harm in order to secure as much power as it can, and they already have. The examples are endless. They are not our friends in any way whatsoever. They're simply business associates.

This was their choice. We've tried to peacefully trade with them. They don't want that clearly, their ambitions are much, much more. If they want an economic and covert intelligence war they will get it. The West is 2-for-2 in defeating aggressively antagonistic totalitarian empires led by brutal dictators. If any Chinese unfortunately starve from our sanctions (which is in no way what I want) it will be the fault of the CCP, my conscience will be totally clear. I can't say the same for most of the weak and pathetic guild-ridden Starbucks-sipping peers of mine. Our will is the only way we'll lose the New Cold War. Realpolitik is a bitch.

[Fasces]

You have to understand that every time someone in the Western world doesn't like what you are saying, they make these claims of "being shut off from the rest of the world". I get this when I tell people about Thailand. They don't like their claims being wrong, or that people in some of the Eastern countries are having success. I think it's a form of ethnocentrism.

Well, it their fault. Using esoteric logograms and funny words is clear evidence of their lack of transparency. If they wanted to be an open society, they'd have the common decency to use English, like civilized folk.

My primary concern above anything else is that the CCP means to do myself, my family, my country, and my countrymen great harm in order to secure as much power as it can, and they already have. The examples are endless. They are not our friends in any way whatsoever. They're simply business associates.

Regardless of the truth of that claim - and it isn't true - that doesn't make China fascist or not.

The most hilarious thing is that if I put USA in for CCP and translated your comment into Chinese, you sound like a run of the mill Weibo nationalist. God save us from the Western and Chinese arm-chair chauvinists, who would nuke the world to be king of the ashes.

[Rugoz]

Does the average Chinese use VPN?

Europe and the United States are largely service-based economies, while China remains a manufacturing and agricultural economy - and development is highly regionalized based on provincial investment, the city tier system, and so on. There are parts of China that are still stuck in the 1940s, especially in rural regions.

Not really:


Rural regions might be behind, but not "1940s in China" behind.

You have to understand that every time someone in the Western world doesn't like what you are saying, they make these claims of "being shut off from the rest of the world". I get this when I tell people about Thailand. They don't like their claims being wrong, or that people in some of the Eastern countries are having success. I think it's a form of ethnocentrism.

The great firewall is a reality.

I know somone who travels to China regularly for work, I know its not "shut off" in that regard.

GDP Is Not a Measure of Human Well-Being
Economic growth has raised living standards around the world. However, modern economies have lost sight of the fact that the standard metric of economic growth, gross domestic product (GDP), merely measures the size of a nation’s economy and doesn’t reflect a nation’s welfare. Yet policymakers and economists often treat GDP, or GDP per capita in some cases, as an all-encompassing unit to signify a nation’s development, combining its economic prosperity and societal well-being. As a result, policies that result in economic growth are seen to be beneficial for society.

We know now that the story is not so simple – that focusing exclusively on GDP and economic gain to measure development ignores the negative effects of economic growth on society, such as climate change and income inequality. It’s time to acknowledge the limitations of GDP and expand our measure development so that it takes into account a society’s quality of life.

A number of countries are starting to do this. India, for instance, where we both work advising the government, is developing an Ease of Living Index, which measures quality of life, economic ability and sustainability.
https://hbr.org/2019/10/gdp-is-not-a-me ... well-being

Nobody said it's a measure for human well-being, it's about economic development.

[Unthinking Majority]

The most hilarious thing is that if I put USA in for CCP and translated your comment into Chinese, you sound like a run of the mill Weibo nationalist.

I'm not American. My country doesn't eff with China. It's the other way around. You have no idea what the CPP has been doing to my country. I'm not going to turn around and spread my cheeks and let the CPP ram me in the ass like a pathetic fool.

God save us from the Western and Chinese arm-chair chauvinists, who would nuke the world to be king of the ashes.

I would never advocate a nuclear first-strike, i'm not suicidal nor a maniac, and I have no desire to fire a bullet at anyone.

[Unthinking Majority]

No, it isn't. I'm literally, this second, writing to you from my office in Qingdao. There are tens of thousands of foreigners in this city, hundreds of thousands across China. There are livestreamers on youtube you can watch, if you like.

China has banned Youtube, Facebook, Google, Twitter etc.

But less police presence in China?

[Fasces]

Does the average Chinese use VPN?

Define use.

Does the average Chinese have access to a VPN? Yes.

Does the average Chinese use their VPN regularly? Depends on their interests. Instagram and video games are common use cases. Most people who work in export markets use a VPN at work so as to be able to use google products with foreign clients or buyers. Same with students applying to foreign universities.

That South Park episode about China last year was incredibly popular and widely watched through VPNs.

To participate in social media networks, or read English language newspapers? Probably fewer, but when's the last time you tried to do with the same with the Chinese language internet?

Not really:

You're again using GDP as a stand-in for the average level of economic development experienced by people. The 300 million in Chinese rural regions that have yet to share in the development experienced in major cities. They will contribute a disproportionately small share of GDP to any national chart, but are still a sizable chunk of the population.

For example, while agriculture contributes 7.1% to Chinese GDP, it still employs 30% of Chinese workers. The last time this was the case in the United States was the 1900s.

Chinese development has been very regionalized, and it is still undergoing that process. You don't seem to have a proper sense of the scale of the problem.

I'm not American. My country doesn't eff with China. It's the other way around. You have no idea what the CPP has been doing to my country. I'm not going to turn around and spread my cheeks and let the CPP ram me in the ass like a pathetic fool.

Nothing that isn't done to it in turn by Five Eyes, and the American political order.

But less police presence in China?

Yep. You see fewer police in China than you do in Spain or the United States. You should visit sometime.

[AFAIK]

Human Development Index

China's Profile

[noemon]

None of those three are inherent characteristics of fascist ideology.

No one in this thread seems to actually care about the ideological character of fascism. They've started at the conclusion that China is bad and are retroactively trying to make what amounts to a political slur stick.

All of the following characteristics of China's structure are the very definition of fascism:

1) Corporatist economy
2) Dictatorship
3) Ultra-nationalism
4) absolute repression of dissent & ethnic minorities.
5) total surveillance

in fact there is not a single fascist characteristic that is not true for China.

[Godstud]

The USA fits some of those, as well. Does that mean it's almost a Fascist state?

1) Corporatist economy - CHECK

2) Dictatorship - Close. It's a Plutocracy.

3) Ultra-nationalism -CHECK

4) absolute repression of dissent & ethnic minorities. - It's going in that direction.

5) total surveillance - CHECK


China's no more a Fascist state than USA is. It doesn't fit in a nice neat and tidy box.

[noemon]

None of that is true. The US does not have a corporatist economy, it is not an official dictatorship and it is not at all ultra-nationalist state in any way, shape or form. Both foreigners and foreign companies thrive in the US and are welcome, not so in China.

If you think America is fascist, then China you must consider something alien.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporati ... by_country

[Godstud]

USA not Ultra-Nationalist? How can you be so blind? You can't go anywhere without hearing Americans chanting, "USA USA USA!", America 1st!, Etc.

Corporations and lobbyists run the US government. USA is, at the very least, almost a Plutocracy.

I am saying that while China isn't a Fascist state(but Fascism is close to Communism, in many ways), it doesn't fit into a neat tidy box that most Westerners would like it to.

[noemon]

USA not Ultra-Nationalist? How can you be so blind? You can't go anywhere without hearing Americans chanting, "USA USA USA!"

This is not about "the people" but about the state. Even if we did talk about "the people" Chinese people are far more nationalist and racist than American people but still that is not the point at all. The fact is that China is an ultra-nationalist state where foreigners and foreign competition inside China is totally discouraged, that is not the case in the USA where foreign people and foreign corporations are welcome.

Also fascist corporatist economy & US corporations. It's not what you think it is. Corporations in the US do not serve the US state and are not run in a holistic manner subsumed under the state:

A fascist corporation is a government body that brings together federations of workers and employers syndicates to regulate production in a holistic manner. Each trade union would theoretically represent its professional concerns, especially by negotiation of labour contracts and the like. It was theorized that this method could result in harmony amongst social classes.[32] However, authors have noted that historically de facto economic corporatism was also used to reduce opposition and reward political loyalty.[33]

In Italy from 1922 until 1943, corporatism became influential amongst Italian nationalists led by Benito Mussolini. The Charter of Carnaro gained much popularity as the prototype of a "corporative state", having displayed much within its tenets as a guild system combining the concepts of autonomy and authority in a special synthesis.[34] Alfredo Rocco spoke of a corporative state and declared corporatist ideology in detail. Rocco would later become a member of the Italian fascist regime.[35]

Italian Fascism involved a corporatist political system in which the economy was collectively managed by employers, workers and state officials by formal mechanisms at the national level.[36] Its supporters claimed that corporatism could better recognize or "incorporate" every divergent interest into the state organically, unlike majority-rules democracy which they said could marginalize specific interests. This total consideration was the inspiration for their use of the term "totalitarian", described without coercion (which is connoted in the modern meaning) in the 1932 Doctrine of Fascism as thus:
When brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State.[37]

[The state] is not simply a mechanism which limits the sphere of the supposed liberties of the individual... Neither has the Fascist conception of authority anything in common with that of a police ridden State... Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers.[37]

A popular slogan of the Italian Fascists under Mussolini was "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato" ("everything for the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state").

If there ever was a fascist country that adheres to all the principles of fascism, that country is China.

The fact that people use "fascism" in here to insult the USA while refusing to call a true fascist country like China what it is, is absolutely mind-boggling and very ridiculous indeed.

China is not merely "fascist", nor does she have policies that tilt her toward "fascism".

China is a true Fascist State.

[Sivad]

Di Dongsheng: We Have People at the Top of America's Circle

Top Chinese professor boasts of operatives in top of US ‘core inner circle’

A recently recorded lecture showing a Chinese Communist Party expert explaining how Beijing had “people at the top of America’s core inner circle” has found its way onto the internet in the United States after being censored in China.

The lecture, given by Di Dongsheng, vice dean of the School of International Relations at Renmin University, in late November also included references to President-elect Joe Biden’s son Hunter and his business dealings in the Communist country.

Speaking about what was pushing the Chinese to accelerate the reopening of their financial sectors, Di made the revelation that Beijing had a rarely discussed advantage in working with the US prior to the Trump administration.

“We know that the Trump administration is in a trade war with us, so why can’t we fix the Trump administration? Why did China and the US used to be able to settle all kinds of issues between 1992 and 2016?” Di asked, going on to answer the question himself.

“I’m going to throw out something maybe a little bit explosive here. It’s just because we have people at the top. We have our old friends who are at the top of America’s core inner circle of power and influence,” the top Chinese political scientist continued.

Di added during the lecture that “for the past 30 years, 40 years, we have been utilizing the core power of the United States.”

As for the future of the US-China relationship, Di appeared optimistic about China’s ability to thrive under an incoming President Biden.

“During the US-China trade war, [Wall Street] tried to help, and I know that my friends on the US side told me that they tried to help, but they couldn’t do much. But now we’re seeing Biden was elected, the traditional elite, the political elite, the establishment, they’re very close to Wall Street, so you see that, right?” Di asked the audience, noting that the next administration would likely take a very different stance from that of President Trump.

Di went on to suggest that Hunter Biden, whose business dealings in Ukraine and China have come under scrutiny, received help from the Chinese in his business efforts.

“Trump has been saying that Biden’s son has some sort of global foundation. Have you noticed that? Who helped [Hunter] build the foundations? Got it? There are a lot of deals inside all these,” Di explained.

Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe reacted to the video while appearing on Fox News Monday.

“There are a lot of people who, for economic reasons, don’t want China to be our greatest threat. There are a lot of people who, for political reasons, don’t want China to be our greatest threat in America, but the intelligence doesn’t lie. China is our greatest threat and it’s not even close,” the intel boss told Tucker Carlson.

“No other country has the capability of essentially taking away the American dream, and a specific plan to do so, and the intelligence is clear.”


https://nypost.com/2020/12/08/professor ... er-circle/

[Skynet]

China wants to create supersoldiers with genetic modification.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... s-n1249914