Ethics of Totalitarianism, Pt. II - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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By Truth-a-naut
#401228
New Era wrote:I am reading the republic but since I currently haven't got any exams, my reading life is not that great. The republic and 6 other books I have started will be read when I have exams in december. Platonism is the basis, it only needs a few adjustments to be shapen in a practical tool to be wielded in the era of today.


Then you obviously know nothing of Plato's reasoning and philosophies behind the work.

What you just said can be akin to me saying "I've read a few sentences on quantum mechanics, I believe I understand it fully."

Finish the book.

Still in the cave seeing shadows eh?
;)

New Era wrote:A illusion wouldn't be a illusion if nothing would be shown.


What I said seems to have passed completely over your head...

New Ear wrote:Sure you have a sense of freedom, but is that really freedom my monarch friend. Even in the most aggressive ideology you have this freedom you speak off. I am quite progressive my friend


Freedom isn't having the world dictated to you in a holistic fashion by a artificial 3rd party of all things.
Progress is being thrown around here as an alternative meaning of control.
By Neo-Manichaean Sarcophobe
#401235
starman2003 wrote: It is necessary and probably inevitable because democracy is increasingly obsolete and the antithesis of the solution. Democracy prevents effective tackling of economic and environmental problems because sacrifice, the key solution, is generally too unpopular to be possible in a democracy. And it can no more meet the challenges of the future than it can solve problems of the present. The electorate ensures that only about 1% of the budget is spent on space; far more continues to be spent on petty individual luxuries and amenities like junk food and porn. Sure, past thinkers erred when they thought they had found the final answer in the form of e.g. communism. But scientific and material progress, the basis for ideological advance, is fast accelerating; that, coupled with the likelihood of ultimate limits to knowledge and progress, certainly suggests a great climax and end of progress will occur quite soon, historically speaking. And it will be the basis for the ultimate system. Consummate understanding will undermine libertarianism and foster Wholism because it will mean, for one thing, that Truth will be at last known. Actually Truth is already known, since the grand overview of Cosmic Evolution is known and scientifically established, even if many details have yet to be filled in. This Truth is totally antithetical to christianity and libertarian "anything goes" and is the basis for Ultimate Wholism. Past wholism-nazism and communism-reflected the evolutionary idea to some extent but they had nowhere near the consummate Evolutionary overview that is/will be basis for an Ultimate Wholism.


I understand your views like this: The continued existence and evolution (exalting our existence to higher states) of our species is at all times our most pressing concern. This concern is so absolute that it makes all other concerns we might have (pleasure, freedom, equality etc.) completely irrelevant. Modern evolutionary science has freed us from religious and quasi-religious thinking. As a result of this knowledge, we know that our continued existence relies upon our own actions; no god will intervene to save us. We must act upon this knowledge and implement a totalitarian system so as to make sure our continued existence is always our highest priority.

Is this a correct representation of your views?
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By Der Freiheitsucher
#401283
New Era wrote:Platonism is the next part of human evolution, if the humans ever want to evolve into something greater, platonism is the only way, is the key for this to happen.


You evidently have no clue whatsoever as to what Platonism is. Are you just using the word because it sounds smarter?

New Era wrote:Freedom is a illusion that will never be realised, where in democracy they give the people the false feeling of freedom, we give them the bitter truth.


Huh? Please susbtantiate this claim. Are we supposed to take the word of some silly fascist who hasn't even read Plato to give this senseless, substanceless claim? Or are you going to try and provide some evidence for this?

New Era wrote:I am reading the republic but since I currently haven't got any exams, my reading life is not that great.


Ahahaha. This explains it. You haven't even read The Republic. Explain to me, New Era, how you can claim that "Platonism is the only way", if you don't even know what Platonism is? And we agree, I thought your reading life was "not that great" as well.

New Era wrote:Platonism is the basis, it only needs a few adjustments to be shapen in a practical tool to be wielded in the era of today.


Haha, geeze, you're a joke. This has to be the most absurd claim ever made about Plato's philosophies, even a Plato admirer would agree. But then again you haven't got the slightest about Platonism or The Republic. The Platonic state has its biggest flaw in the incompatibility with a modern society, but you clam it "only needs a few adjustments"? You're making an ass out of yourself boy, your ignorance concerning Plato oozes from your posts. Go to Jesse's sticky on this forum so you can read up on the subject.
By Sapper
#401308
First off do you even know what Platonism is?, have you read The Republic? What could be "applied" to Greek city states would not work in todays world. Or maybe you're just throwing the word around.


I've read _The Republic_ nearly three times. I've still got my notes and Sparknotes lying around here some where, as well. Many of the social reforms Plato proposed would do the world some good. Of course they can't be used as Plato described exactly.

First of all, I don't think Nietzsche would agree that his writings are a blueprint for a totalitarian system of ethics.


Perhaps not, but it does fit well, IMO.

Secondly, how can progress be a goal?


As easily as freedom can be a goal.
By Neo-Manichaean Sarcophobe
#401371
Sapper46123 wrote:As easily as freedom can be a goal.

I don't think it is possible to speak of progress as a goal. The way I understand the word progress, it is the act of moving forward toward a goal. If your goal is more equality, and you indeed succeed in reducing inequality in society, then you have progressed toward the goal of more equality. You have acchieved progress whenever you have moved closer to your goal. So I ask you: what is the goal of the totalitarianism?

Reading your essay, it seems to me that you believe that the goal of totalitarianism is the continued existence of humanity; that democracy and other modern forms of government will lead to human extinction and that it is therefore necessary to reform society to ensure our survival. Is this still your belief?
By Garibaldi
#401690
Sapper46123 wrote:I suppose the basis for totalitarian ethics (i.e. why progress is a wise goal) would come from Darwin, and people like Neitzsche. From a Wikipedia article:

H.L. Mencken's book on Nietzsche described his work as an early effort to reconcile the philosophical implications of Charles Darwin's "survival of the fittest" evolutionary theory with contemporary moral and ethical systems....

One of Nietzsche's central concepts is "the Will to Power" (Wille zur Macht), a process of expansion and venting of creative energy that he believed was the basic driving force of nature....

... the Will to Power is taken as an animal's most fundamental instinct or drive, even more fundamental than the will to self-preservation. The Will to Power is something like the desire to exert one's will in self-overcoming, although it may well be unconscious.... Nietzsche's ideas of aggression are almost always meant as aggression toward oneself, as the energy one motivates toward self-mastery. In any case, since the Will to Power is fundamental, any other drives are to be reduced to it...

The suffering born of conflict between competing wills and the efforts to overcome one's environment is not evil, but a part of existence to be embraced.


I haven't read much of Nietzsche. But I do seem to like his theories regarding evolution so far.


I agree with you, Neitzsche is brilliant. However, you misunderstand him. The will to power can't manifest in any state, especially a totalitarian one; within capitalism and other free systems, one has the ability to express themselves however they want and establish dominence. However, within totalitarianism only the leaders have the ability to attempt the will to power; everybody else has to accept their will to power.

Further more, totalitarianism can't exist in correlation to the will to power. In it, people have to act with a hive mentality and sacrifice to the good of all instead. If you accept the will to power, people will not act for the good of all. Instead, they'll work the minimum amount to survive and constantly undermine whoever to establish themselves in power. In fact, most will fight against it all together.

Even more to the point, Neitzsche points out that no goal of perfection is obtainable. It's ridiculous to work for a perfect system, you'll never attempt it; all you'll do is fall short and live an unenjoyed existance. You can note the twenty-five hundred years of thought stemming from Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle has not provided any perfection. In the middle ages, people were tortured by either themselves or somebody else if they fell short of what was socially acceptable in the slightest. However, nobody ever became the image of perfection. The same will happen if you push for a perfect society, it will never happen.

If you know anything about Neitzsche at all, you'll know he hates Plato. You can't make their beliefs compatable, Neitzsche is the antithesis of Plato.

As Vivisekt has pointed out many times, freedom is only possible under an anarchist setting. Even in libertarian governments, I am not free to impose my lifestyle on others, nor am I free to harm others.


That's a misconception. You're speaking of complete & total freedom; this is impossible. On the one hand, you could be free to kill and rape; on the other, you're free from being murdered or being raped. You can only pick one, therefore the one which protects your rights over your body is chosen.

Furthermore, happiness is a wise goal because it can be established as the root cause of what "good" is, as well as why we act and establish "good".


How is "happiness" a fundamental goal?
[/quote]

Did I claim it to be a fundemental goal? I merely said it can be construed that because it's the basis of all ideals, either in action or in conception.
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By starman2003
#401863
Jonathan wrote:
starman2003 wrote: It is necessary and probably inevitable because democracy is increasingly obsolete and the antithesis of the solution. Democracy prevents effective tackling of economic and environmental problems because sacrifice, the key solution, is generally too unpopular to be possible in a democracy. And it can no more meet the challenges of the future than it can solve problems of the present. The electorate ensures that only about 1% of the budget is spent on space; far more continues to be spent on petty individual luxuries and amenities like junk food and porn. Sure, past thinkers erred when they thought they had found the final answer in the form of e.g. communism. But scientific and material progress, the basis for ideological advance, is fast accelerating; that, coupled with the likelihood of ultimate limits to knowledge and progress, certainly suggests a great climax and end of progress will occur quite soon, historically speaking. And it will be the basis for the ultimate system. Consummate understanding will undermine libertarianism and foster Wholism because it will mean, for one thing, that Truth will be at last known. Actually Truth is already known, since the grand overview of Cosmic Evolution is known and scientifically established, even if many details have yet to be filled in. This Truth is totally antithetical to christianity and libertarian "anything goes" and is the basis for Ultimate Wholism. Past wholism-nazism and communism-reflected the evolutionary idea to some extent but they had nowhere near the consummate Evolutionary overview that is/will be basis for an Ultimate Wholism.


I understand your views like this: The continued existence and evolution (exalting our existence to higher states) of our species is at all times our most pressing concern. This concern is so absolute that it makes all other concerns we might have (pleasure, freedom, equality etc.) completely irrelevant. Modern evolutionary science has freed us from religious and quasi-religious thinking. As a result of this knowledge, we know that our continued existence relies upon our own actions; no god will intervene to save us. We must act upon this knowledge and implement a totalitarian system so as to make sure our continued existence is always our highest priority.

Is this a correct representation of your views?


The alternatives are either Wholism or collapse and destruction, inasmuch as democracy can't effectively tackle pressing economic and environmental problems. Better the loss of "freedom" than the loss of everything. Of course there's no "god" who will "save" us. Wholism is essential for reaching our full potential as well as rectifying deadly problems.
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By starman2003
#401868
If ever there was something Nietzsche was opposed to, it was DEMOCRACY, as well as christianity of course. From what I remember of his writings, he seemed to like men like Napoleon, and the Roman Empire. Under totalitarianism or Wholism, the entire society is oriented toward the will to power. Many people wield authority over subordinates in a hierarchy, and everyone strives to increase national power. Under democracy, almost nobody has much power. Basically all people can do is acquire material things and pursue hedonism; they can't exercise much control over others. And the country itself isn't anywhere near as powerful as it could be. The whole point of sacrifice for the whole is to make the Whole or State more POWERFUL in relation to others.
By Sapper
#401992
As Starman said, totalitarianism may be necessary to sustain humanity. How's this for an ethical statement: either take our ideology, or die.

Garibaldi, I'm back at step one really. I don't know the answer. What about what Vivisekt said in the first reply:

...because humans are flawed, and it is quite possible that we will always be flawed, I would argue that attempting to fabricate imperative is folly. It is not logical, given our own vast ignorance, to use our emerging powers of technology and conceptual knowledge to facilitate any comprehensive programs in the name of 'progress' that part from the inherent (observable) processes of life which allow our existance to continue in the first place. We should instead take up a scientific approach to ideology in that we make rational observations about ourselves, and then work to facilitiate only what we've observed as the invariable fundamental processes of humanity. That is why my totalitarian sociopolitical theory is centered on evolution, as a conceptual base (but extends beyond this). And by 'evolution' - I mean the constant updating and streamlining of the systems that the human species employs in order to survive and carry out basic functions. This is best accomplished through the development of science, technology, and continued exploration of all sorts (a byproduct of which is expansion - another apparently fundamental aspect of the human survival process).
By Neo-Manichaean Sarcophobe
#401996
starman2003 wrote:The alternatives are either Wholism or collapse and destruction, inasmuch as democracy can't effectively tackle pressing economic and environmental problems. Better the loss of "freedom" than the loss of everything. Of course there's no "god" who will "save" us. Wholism is essential for reaching our full potential as well as rectifying deadly problems.


Sapper46123 wrote:As Starman said, totalitarianism may be necessary to sustain humanity. How's this for an ethical statement: either take our ideology, or die.

Your views are much like my own. So why don't we make this our goal instead of the ill-defined "progress".

1. Democratic and other modern forms of government are flawed and will inevitably (which we aim to proof) lead to our extinction. We simply need to make the transition to a totalitarian government if we are to survive.

2. A totalitarian government is needed to suppress individual concerns and to keep all individuals dedicated to the concerns of the state, or the "whole". Only then will human potential be maximized. Our ultimate goal is not only survival; it is higher states of existence = transcendence. Ultimately, omnipotence. We shall be godless and godlike.
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By starman2003
#402093
Glad to see you're on our side. Yes we shall be godless and godlike. In the real, Cosmic Evolutionary Worldview, there is no god until civilization becomes advanced enough to be one. It is a fallacy, btw, to think that advanced technology alone can produce a far advanced, virtually omnipotent civilization. Values and ideologies must also improve. There's no way we can make full use of cloning and genetic engineering as long as the holy joes still have influence. And there's no way we'll get far in space as long as the selfish masses ensure that far more is spent on junk food and porn. Wholism is also vitally important, if we are to reach the summit.
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By Khenlein
#402789
What good is knowing how to go into space, knowing how to restore the environment, knowing hwo to solve all of these problems, but not being able to utilize this technology because the voters just want lower taxes and more benefits, and the consumers just want bubble gum, fast cars, and Britney Spears' CDs? Totalitarianism gives humanity the ability to use the technology which was developed by democracy. Totalitarianism is, essentially, cultural evolution.


If I could play devil's advocate for a moment.

How?

I like broad generalities and theory and philosophy as well as the next man, to a point. But I am a creature of concreate ideas and specific details. It's well enough to say Totalism will bring X, but how will Totalism bring X?

Also, you say a Totalist society is the natural progression of human societal evolution. But that statement seems totally contrary to history. As societies and cultures advance, they strive more and more towards Free Democratic societies. Where Government intrustion (especially in the Social aspect of life) is something to combat.
By New Era
#402885
King Goldstein, Der Freiheitsucher

I checked my copy of the republic and I am just about to start book VI. However I won't start to read this work untill school starts again. I have to spend 1-2 hours/day in study and I will have all the time of the world to read. However we seem to hold a different value to the word platonism. Any totalitarian goverment has some link to plato's work, thus I see platonism as one big group that contains all totalitarian ideologies. From fascism to wholism, all these ideologies belong in the group platonism. You are solely referring to the works of plato, I refer to all systems based on his work.
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By Truth-a-naut
#402889
New Era wrote:Any totalitarian goverment has some link to plato's work


No it does not.

New Era wrote:thus I see platonism as one big group that contains all totalitarian ideologies


Uh huh...

New Era wrote: From fascism to wholism, all these ideologies belong in the group platonism.


Without a grasp of the philosophy?
No.

New Era wrote: You are solely referring to the works of plato, I refer to all systems based on his work.


You've basically repeated yourself four times now.
Platonism is... Platonism
Fascism is... Fascism!

Fascism is not a spin off of Platonism, merely bossing the herd around does not equate to Platonism.
By Sapper
#403056
Actually, I just found a transhumanist website that offers some questions Garibaldi. Do you think they are sufficient answers to why evolution/progress is desirable?

There have been many attempts to search for a "primary value", from which the others can be derived. God's will has been suggested as a theological source of such a value. This we must reject as non-scientific and non-constructive. An alternative ethical theory relies on naturalism (what is, is good), but the underlying assumption that values can be derived from states of affairs has been criticized as the "naturalistic fallacy"....

While primary values cannot be derived from nature, they must be consistent with evolution and natural selection, the primary mechanism that has generated all of nature. This mechanism has an implicit value, as selection entails a preference for certain states of affairs over others. Natural selection can be seen to strive to maximize survival or fitness. Thus we take survival, in the most general sense, as the primary value. If we also take into account reproduction, the more general evolutionary value is fitness: maximizing the probability that our genes (or memes) will still be around in future generations.

Because of the "Red Queen Principle" the seemingly conservative value of survival necessarily entails continuing progress, development, or growth: if you do not innovate by constantly trying out new variations, you will sooner or later lose the competition with those that do innovate. Thus we can from there derive the ultimate good as the continuation of the process of evolution itself, in the negative sense of avoiding evolutionary "dead ends" and general extinction, in the positive sense of constantly increasing our fitness, and thus our intelligence, degree of organization and general mastery over the universe.


http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/EVOLVAL.html
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By starman2003
#403143
Khenlein wrote:
What good is knowing how to go into space, knowing how to restore the environment, knowing hwo to solve all of these problems, but not being able to utilize this technology because the voters just want lower taxes and more benefits, and the consumers just want bubble gum, fast cars, and Britney Spears' CDs? Totalitarianism gives humanity the ability to use the technology which was developed by democracy. Totalitarianism is, essentially, cultural evolution.


If I could play devil's advocate for a moment.

How?

I like broad generalities and theory and philosophy as well as the next man, to a point. But I am a creature of concreate ideas and specific details. It's well enough to say Totalism will bring X, but how will Totalism bring X?

Also, you say a Totalist society is the natural progression of human societal evolution. But that statement seems totally contrary to history. As societies and cultures advance, they strive more and more towards Free Democratic societies. Where Government intrustion (especially in the Social aspect of life) is something to combat.


How totalitarianism or Wholism can make better or fuller use of technology than democracy has been addressed here before: Wholism can impose individual sacrifice for a great common endeavor involving e.g. space technology. Right now, as Sapper's post noted, the national wealth is devoted to satisfying individual desires; space spending is only about 1% of the budget. Vastly more is spent on private cars, porn and junk food etc. Such priorities reflect the will of the masses, and the democracy under which they have their way. Wholism or totalitarinism could ensure that far more is spent on space than on say, private cars. Another example is the ability of a Wholist system to make full use of cloning and genetic engineering, whereas current society is too concerned with so called individual rights and judao-christian morality to do that. It is a fallacy to associate technical advance or modernization with increasing democracy. As Orwell knew, technology has the potential to increase the power and scope of the State at the expense of the individual. Totalitarianism is a relatively recent development, based largely on scientific and material advances, including e.g. Darwinism, which was part of the basis for totalitarian secular ideology. Again, past wholism was premature, flawed and failed. But the progress which gave rise to it is continuing, and should culminate in an Ultimate Wholism.
By Neo-Manichaean Sarcophobe
#403177
Interesting quote, Sapper. I have visited quite a lot of transhumanist websites and I believe it has much to offer totalitarianism.
By Sapper
#403187
Jonathan wrote:Interesting quote, Sapper. I have visited quite a lot of transhumanist websites and I believe it has much to offer totalitarianism.


I agree. If we could just get those liberals out of there...

Also, you say a Totalist society is the natural progression of human societal evolution. But that statement seems totally contrary to history. As societies and cultures advance, they strive more and more towards Free Democratic societies.


Starman has posted an excellent response to this, but I would just like to answer this more specifically. Humanity is not quite ready for wholism. Wholism will come when we're ready. It truly is the pinnacle of evolution.

Also, just because we've been striving toward democracy does not mean we will continue to do so. In the past, for instance, total imposition of Christianity over the earth was a goal. However, this does not mean that the world was totally converted to Christian fundamentalism. In fact, the Renassiance re-introduced science and rationality -- two concepts generally veiwed as the opposite of Christianity.
By New Era
#403250
King Goldstein,

I repeat myself because repetition is the only way you can enlight the dumb, meaning you. I said why I wielded platonism in the way I do and still you are being a unrational fool about it. If you can come up with a better name to unite all the different totalitarian ideologies and something that sounds good too, than I shall wield that name but for the time being I will use platonism as the collection for all the different totalitarian forms :)
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By Truth-a-naut
#403270
"I shall wield the name..."

:lol:

Call it... Lackofimaginationism which all it really is.

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