[Jesse]

Edited.

[Truth-a-naut]

On Nazi Germany.

Classifying Nazi Germany as an outright failure seems somewhat dismissive. It was a broad and (overly)ambitous experiment in sociology, it intended and achieved at uniting the Germans in one common goal, this is not deniable. To achieve something as large as what Hitler planned one could not simply use the old disgustingly virtous reasoning layed out by Plato and the rest of the sophists, purging a people of its old habits (whether it be intellectual, religious or in a way itself) was not an easy or 'moral' cause, my case in point is that you are applying a highly moralized perspective on matters and refusing to acknowledge the need for the 'cohesive chaos' the 3rd Reich used in staying in and spreading its power.

You touched on the State within a State 'problems' that plagued the 3rd Reich, I of course for discussion purposes disagree.
A highly centralized state is contrary to belief quite easy to behead. Taking out the main legislative branch of the Reich would not cause everything to fall apart, as what happened in the USSR (The USSR was of course under a different set of problems), actual revolt in the 3rd Reich was not entirely impossible but then again it was not entirely possible either- we saw the hammer come down when the Stauffenberg bomb plot failed, a show of power also took place when the 'Night of the long knives' took place, the key word here is of course power.

After looking over this post it seems to be quite horrible and well... shoddy, none the less I will post it and admit that my only historical lesson in the 3rd Reich has been 'The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich' and my grandfather a Luftwaffe/Fallischirmjager(sp?) volunteer. He may have been an ardent Nazi but I am not and need some time to build a fair and logical conclusion to my assertations. I will of course do this tonight and post some more tomorrow morning. And for this I apologize.

[malachi151]

To put it succintly, the Liberalistic philosophers of Western were right - Nazism was a mistake. However, they did not realize how. And whats more, they didn't realize that it did itself more harm than good. The Nazi movement did more to discredit the virtues of unity, order, and discipline (despite the fact it possessed none of these) than years of weak liberalistic proselytizing.

Yes and Stalin and Mao did even more damage to Marxist ideology.

In reality, fascism was a success becuase America is a fascist country. America is the use of all the "good" parts of fascism without the overtly negative parts.

[Ixa]

To put it succintly, the Liberalistic philosophers of Western were right - Nazism was a mistake. However, they did not realize how. And whats more, they didn't realize that it did itself more harm than good. The Nazi movement did more to discredit the virtues of unity, order, and discipline (despite the fact it possessed none of these) than years of weak liberalistic proselytizing.

Yes and Stalin and Mao did even more damage to Marxist ideology.

How did they do damage to Marxist ideology?

[Jesse]

Lets not try to steer this off topic, to begin yet another one of the incessant debates upon Stalin. Discuss the essay at hand, and we can discuss the merits of Stalinism in a more appropriate venue, such as the Communism forum. Thanks for co-operating.

Despite of that facts may state to the contrary, popular opinion is that they led in a manner that was bloodthirsty and domineering to an extreme. Whether this is correct or not is not up for discussion here.

However, back on topic - I look forward to Goldstein's analysis of this subject.

[Vivisekt]

Nazi German totalitarianisim was NOT, in any way, representetive of a properly conducted totalitarian administration. Such a sentiment is absurd when one takes into account the nature of a dictatorship, and who it was that was dictating the Nazi state.

Hitler was a complete mess.

First of all, he was a drug addict. He began taking drugs such as cocaine and methamphetamine (speed) in the 1930s and by 1942 under the administration of his personal physician, Dr. Theodore Morell, was taking speed injections several times daily.

Hitler had Parkinson's Disease, which was beginning to manifest it's advanced stages through partial loss of limb function and tremors by the end of the war. As such, his powers of oration would not have persisted much beyond the conclusion of the war in europe even if germany was victorious. He would have been rendered inneffective as a national figurehead under his own doctrines of physical excellence and superiority.

Furthermore, Hitler was a sociopath (see:psychopathic personality). www.britannica.com defines psycopathic personality as "an emotionally and behaviorally disordered state characterized by clear perception of reality except for the individual's social and moral obligations and often by the pursuit of immediate personal gratification in criminal acts, drug addiction, or sexual perversion". Let's apply that definition to Hitler:

Drug addiction?
Check.

Pursuit of immediate personal gratification in criminal acts?
-Obvious in the fact that his effort to exterminate the Jews of Europe actually intensified once it became obvious that germany was going to lose the war, as well as the way in which his persecution of homosexuals relates directly to his own personal life (Hitler was homosexual). This is clear psychological projection. Check.

Sexual Perversion?
-Homosexuality (if you want to classify that as a perversion), child molestation (world war one military record), excrement fetishes. Check.

Otherwise clear perception of reality?
Clear enough perception of germany's sense of victimization after world war one to find a scapegoat and whip the country into a nationalistic frenzy. Check.

Here we have a textbook psychopathic individual. This is probally the worst type of person to have at the head of a totalitarian state, as some of Hitler's rash military judgements also reflect (like the illogical invasion of russia, a product of Hitler's frustration with inability of the Luftwaffe to crush the brittish RAF over Britian).

The German National Socialist totalitarian organisim can not be indicative of the extent of what totalitarian government is capable when it's dictator is a psychopathic drug addict.

And much like the state's dictator, the state itsself was systematically flawed for reasons that Jesse goes into in his original post.





reference points of interest -

Hitler and the homosexuality of the Nazi party:
One
Two