[XogGyux]

:roll: Not everybody contemplating death or the meaning of life has to go see a doctor.

Nope. But he is in "deep sadness" and "happiness is impossible" and overall tone of the message is in deep sad/melancholy. Those are big warning signs for major depression/hypothymia dysfunction. If he is being sincere, he should consider giving a visit to his PCP/psychiatrist. If there is a bit of poetic exaggeration (drama) then ignore. It was not a comment directed to everyone that contemplate death... it is a comment directed to those who contemplate it from a depressed frame of view.

Well you didn't exist before you existed, so that's a pretty stupid argument to me.

Sorry. I did not think i had to chew this information any further. You did not existed before you were born and you will not exist after you die. Basically your level of consciousness will be the same.... non-existing. Does it bother you that you did not exist 200 years ago? It should not bother you that you will not exist 200 from now.

You haven't experienced death so you can't really say what it's like, can you?

Is not that the same for everyone?

[Cookie Monster]

Human consciousness is a rather frail thing, easily extinguished. After all, we lose consciousness every time we fall asleep. For hours every night, when we fall into a dreamless sleep, we cease to exist. Does this mean that we are filled with existential dread every time we switch the light off and pull the covers up? I don't think so. This is because we expect to wake up again the next day. And if we didn't? Would we suffer? Would we feel regret at no longer existing? No we wouldn't, because we wouldn't exist. So why does the thought of death - a dreamless sleep without end - fill us with such dread? It seems to me that it's because we have invented a narrative about our consciousness, a narrative which must have a meaning which unfolds as the narrative unfolds. If the narrative ends, then it has no meaning; it is 'empty' in some profound sense. This is a fantasy, of course. In reality, our consciousness has no narrative, and our 'life story' actually isn't a story at all. It's just there. Until it isn't.

Well said. Did you ever consider becoming a therapist? You would be good at it.

[Frollein]

You shouldn't be concerned about death, but about dying. It's a pretty shitty, drawn out, painful mess. Like being born, just in the other direction.

[LV-GUCCI-PRADA-FLEX]

My biggest fear in the world that kept me going when I was really down is what would happen if I tried to shoot myself in the face and survive. That would be the worst.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

On the other hand, we have the perception of death, and not that of a loved one, but of our own.
Countless many explored this thought, and many talked of clearly. Its all over religion, and all over philosophy new and old. Even science goes into it.
But has anyone taken a minute to really think about it. Your own death. I mean besides reading about it, and hearing all these lectures about these topics. I find that most just ignores it, and its a dark thought, and a puzzling one to that matter as well therefor its reasonable to decide not to think about it.
But nevertheless, when one does thinks about it. Its just hard to comprehend.
Like how can you wrap your mind and thoughts around the idea that you will no longer exist.
What will come after that ? will there be an after ?
What would you think when you're in the moment where your life ends ?
How can anyone even comprehend the idea of dying, an end with no return after it.
And more so, how can we simply accept it ?

Did anyone think about these sides of it before ?

When I really stop to think about it, it is troublesome, as it is to everyone else, to attempt to grasp the mere idea that we, one day, will cease to exist.

An interesting way of realizing it might not be as bad as we think (although contemplating the death of ego isn't particularly fun) is to recognize that our consciousness, as we perceive it in our daily life, ends when we fall asleep. Our brain continues to function of course, and many of us remember our dreams as an altered state of consciousness, but our consciousness proper, in effect, basically ceases to exist for a period of time once we fall asleep. The process of falling asleep is something we can't remember, either. In short, we experience the end of consciousness every time we go to sleep. This is no different from being dead, when our consciousness ends as well. It happens all the time for us, and it isn't something to be feared, so maybe we should try to approach death in the same way. Instead of fearing it, we should try to tie up loose ends and focus on living a meaningful life, just as, hopefully, many of us try to spend our day doing meaningful things.

I find it an interesting thought to consider that when I die, the molecules in my body may eventually become part of a tree, or a flower, or any number of living things. In a way, the matter which temporarily houses my existence will live on. Every part of our bodies come from stars, and one day every molecule which was once part of us will, again, find their way into space. At the end of the day, we're all just bubbles in a stream, or the flash of lightning in the midnight sky. We exist for only a moment, and in a moment, we're gone.

Edit: I didn't read the thread before I posted, and I notice that @Potemkin said something similar about how falling asleep is like dying. I blame various saboteurs, Dutchmen, and counterrevolutionaries for this.

[jakell]

I seem to find myself talking to Jehovah's witnesses more than any other 'Christian' group, mainly because they come to my house and I give them some of my time, but also because they mostly have a good knowledge of the Bible and are willing to talk about these things no matter how awkward the conversation becomes.

One major difference that I've noticed with standard Christianity is their denial of a physical death.. that somehow (the details become hazy), once God/Jesus decides the time is right then there will be no more decay or death and we will all continue to live on Earth, which somehow becomes a sustainable paradise.

I point out to them that other 'Christian' groups seem a bit more grown-up about this business, that they accept a physical death if not a spiritual one. The JW's seem to cling to this though and it's probably not a bad selling point, it tends to sort out the 'needy' people from those who are more secure.

[One Degree]

The internet actually relieves one fear of death. The vast majority of us are expunged from history and the minds of all living people within two or three generations. The internet means a part of us will continue to survive somewhere.

[Frollein]

@Bulaba, you know about lucid dreams? There you can watch yourself fall asleep and retain your waking consciousness inside the dreamworld. I had some lucid dreams (I can't generate them, they just happen) and the fascinating thing is that the dreamworld is as detailed and real as the waking world - but totally malleable to your will. I could imagine it's like the ultimate drug trip, without the health hazard.

I read a book by Pim van Lommel (the name cracks me up every time...), it's called Endless Consciousness or something. He's a doctor who had some patients with Near Death experiences that shook him up pretty badly, so he started to collect data about it. He's pretty sold on the concept of life after death now. Perhaps you should check out his book.

I don't know if I'm delighted or appalled by the idea that we don't cease to exist.

[One Degree]

I don't know if I'm delighted or appalled by the idea that we don't cease to exist.

This is something I have felt, but never seen discussed. Excellent point.

Edit: I have tried to imagine an after life and it always comes up short. If Heaven is perfect then it sounds boring.

[Rancid]

Death itself doesn't bug me all that much. What does bug me, is the manner in which I will die. My transition into death is what freaks me out.

[Frollein]

If Heaven is perfect then it sounds boring.

But if it's boring, then it isn't perfect. So in order to be perfect, it can't be boring.

[anna]

Human consciousness is a rather frail thing, easily extinguished. After all, we lose consciousness every time we fall asleep. For hours every night, when we fall into a dreamless sleep, we cease to exist.

We actually move through various states of consciousness when we sleep, and the closest we come to losing consciousness is in the deepest level of sleep, which we cycle in and out of over the course of the night. And while we're sleeping, our brain is actually quite busy, so I'd argue that perhaps we're at our most alive when we're asleep.

[Potemkin]

We actually move through various states of consciousness when we sleep, and the closest we come to losing consciousness is in the deepest level of sleep, which we cycle in and out of over the course of the night. And while we're sleeping, our brain is actually quite busy, so I'd argue that perhaps we're at our most alive when we're asleep.

Indeed, but brain activity and consciousness are two very different things. Our brains might well be more active while we are in a deep dreamless sleep than they are while we are awake. But so what? Most of our thinking, even when we are awake, is in fact unconscious thinking. Consciousness is like a pale, flickering candle constantly on the verge of being blown out. It is like a frail raft floating on a sea of unconscious thought. Yet it is the loss of consciousness, the loss of their self-reflexive subjectivity, which is what troubles people when they contemplate their own death. And that kind of conscious self-awareness cannot even survive the act of falling asleep, let alone the loss of all brain function.

[anna]

Indeed, but brain activity and consciousness are two very different things.

They're inseparable.

Our brains might well be more active while we are in a deep dreamless sleep than they are while we are awake. But so what? Most of our thinking, even when we are awake, is in fact unconscious thinking. Consciousness is like a pale, flickering candle constantly on the verge of being blown out. It is like a frail raft floating on a sea of unconscious thought. Yet it is the loss of consciousness, the loss of their self-reflexive subjectivity, which is what troubles people when they contemplate their own death. And that kind of conscious self-awareness cannot even survive the act of falling asleep, let alone the loss of all brain function.

I agree with you in that much of what we process during the course of the day involves implicit reasoning and memory, and that many of our decisions are made with our limbic system (emotional reasoning) and then rationalized with the part of our cortex which produces executive functioning. However I don't see consciousness as the pale, flickering candle you do, it's immensely powerful and complex and most of us never reach the potential that is there waiting - but the brain never stops, and will prune what we don't use and strengthen what we do use. But in sleep, our brain is free to roam, so to speak, and as it goes about gathering the flotsam and jetsam of the day and trying to make some sense of it, deciding what to consolidate into long term memory and what to toss... those dreams... that's when the mind can escape the boundaries we impose on it when we're awake. That's power.

[Drlee]

This is a fantasy, of course. In reality, our consciousness has no narrative, and our 'life story' actually isn't a story at all. It's just there. Until it isn't.”

I disagree with this. I believe we write our life's story as we go along. We are not blowing in the wind. We are propelling ourselves through however many years we may have. And even that is something upon which we can create. We can give ourselves a greater chance of living longer. Adding chapters to our books.

If I ask you to touch your nose and count to three, you can choose to do it or not. If you do you change your life. You may feel silly. It may give you a sense of control.

As we sit here you are writing a chapter in your book. A great deal of creativity is happening.

If by "book of life" you are referring to some predestination sort of thing then that is quite another thing altogether.

Life does not only happen to us. We make it happen and we intrude upon other's lives. Life is way more fun than a game.

What happens at death? I have chosen to believe that when I die I will live on in some way that the same God who made me deems proper. IF I am wrong I will never know that I am wrong. In the meantime, in exchange for behaving in a manner in which I completely approve, and which I believe benefits my fellow man, I am offered hope. Not only hope that I will survive death but hope that I can have some help with the heavy lifting along the way. I think that is a fair deal.

I like life. I want more of it. I like the lives of others around me. I am curious, entertained, and smart enough to know much of what makes me happy. Having hope for the future makes me happy. I wish you all could have it. Well. You could. You just have to decide to.

Is what I am doing the suspension of reality? Of course not. My life is just as real as any of yours.

If being old gives me the prerogative to offer advice it is this. Decide to be happy. Take responsibility for it every moment of your life. If you find yourself unhappy for a time then either change your circumstances or count the minutes until you will be happier.

There is an old Navajo prayer:

When you are born you cry and the world rejoices.

May it be that when you die the world cries and you rejoice.

[One Degree]

There is an old Navajo prayer:

When you are born you cry and the world rejoices.

May it be that when you die the world cries and you rejoice.

Nice.

[Besoeker]

James Shirley.

The glories of our blood and state
Are shadows, not substantial things;
There is no armour against Fate;
Death lays his icy hand on kings:
Sceptre and Crown
Must tumble down,
And in the dust be equal made
With the poor crookèd scythe and spade.

[XogGyux]

They're inseparable.

Incorrect. Consciousness, by definition requires being awake and aware of the surroundings. That is why concussion is not the same as a contusion. That is whay LOC (Loss Of Consciousness) even exist in medical vocabulary, etc. Coma patients have brain activity (albeit abnormal).

I don't know if I'm delighted or appalled by the idea that we don't cease to exist.

Actually I cannot think of any circumstances where I would enjoy eternal existence (and that include any of the paradise constructs). Given the option of a particularly long existence (but finite nonetheless) I sure would enjoy it so I can learn more of the mysteries of the universe. But endless existence just sounds extremely exhausting for me.

[jakell]

@Bulaba, you know about lucid dreams? There you can watch yourself fall asleep and retain your waking consciousness inside the dreamworld. I had some lucid dreams (I can't generate them, they just happen) and the fascinating thing is that the dreamworld is as detailed and real as the waking world - but totally malleable to your will. I could imagine it's like the ultimate drug trip, without the health hazard.

I read a book by Pim van Lommel (the name cracks me up every time...), it's called Endless Consciousness or something. He's a doctor who had some patients with Near Death experiences that shook him up pretty badly, so he started to collect data about it. He's pretty sold on the concept of life after death now. Perhaps you should check out his book.

I don't know if I'm delighted or appalled by the idea that we don't cease to exist.

The idea of eternal existence is problematic because we can ask ourselves which 'version' of ourselves goes onwards (which we could call the soul). Given that death is usually unwanted and hard to predict we could assume that the 'version' of us that goes on would be that one at the point of death, but this particular slice could be one of a multitude of selves that we have been throughout our lives.

The only ways around this, if we want to rationalise these things (which might not be the best approach), would be to somehow stabilise our inner world and self so it becomes unchanging which is something that is only really achievable by a buddhist-like detachment from the world.. or to assume that the soul is unaffected by the accumulations of life and that it is an internal constant.
With this latter one though, the soul can hardly be said to represent a continuation of what we see as our self, unless we die very young maybe.

[B0ycey]

If you are religious, why fear death? If you live life by your religions ethos you will be rewarded with eternal life surely? And if you are wrong, you live life without fear. Win Win. But personally I don't fear death. I fear brain deterioration. Our whole being and who we are is stalled in that perious organ. You can live for a million years, but what is the use of this if you suffer from severe dementia from the age of 50? My family seem free from this horrible disease. I hope it continues with me. But I have seen the devastation of it, and it's not pretty. All I can say to you is, live your life as you want. Do the things that you want and if you want eternal life hope there is more to death than nothingness. I think there is a quote from 'Harry Potter' of all books that says 'Death is only the next big adventure'. I like that quote. We don't know what death is and if we are lucky, the adventure could even be better than life itself. Embrace death when it comes, don't fear it.