[Political Interest]

Often Western values are defined as individualism, free market capitalism and liberal democracy.

Who defined these values as the "Western values"? Firstly, how is the West defined and secondly do these values represent all of the West or only a small section of it?

Many European societies were not democratic, did not respect the individual and had autocratic forms of governance. France before the revolution is one example. Even Germany did not have a necessarily liberal political tradition.

Only in the Anglosphere can it be said that individualism, free market capitalism and liberal democracy were the most important values.

Why do we call define Western values in such a narrow way?

[layman]

An uneasy combination of Christianity and The Age of Enlightenment pretty much define western values. America was formed off the back of this as well.

Both communism and Fascism were a sort of counter reaction to this. Both movements creep into parts of what some would consider western also.

[Noob]

'The Western tradition' was born in Greece, it moved to Italy, it passed through Western Europe to England, it moved across the Atlantic, and has settled in California, where the concept of 'the West' has gone to die, and die it should, because it's becoming ever more removed from European cultural realities and it instead acts as a portable world culture that can be adopted by anybody, anywhere. It's from this that individualism, liberal-universalism, cosmopolitanism, reverence for the free market, and so on, characterise what it is to be 'Western', and countries are only 'Western' in so far as they adhere to this set of ideals (essentially, political allegiance and acceptance of the US' dominance). For instance, France, Italy, Spain and Greece can never be as 'Western' as New Zealand (and any other Anglosphere country) is, what with its Anglo-Saxon liberal-capitalist foundations, despite all of those countries' key importance in Europe's history.

The term no longer refers to a fixed geographical space or to a set of cultural ideals, but rather to modern economically advanced industrial countries: 'the West' is now basically synonymous with 'modernity'. Besides the superficial modern abstract liberal/moralistic values which aren't going to last, there isn't much that binds this tier-system of 'the West' together. Another point is that, if countries such as Indonesia or India are 'Westernised', they can remain Indonesian/Indian and can in addition be 'Western' as well - on the other hand, Britain, as one of the key epicentres of this 'West', cannot be anything but 'Western', which clearly leads to self-negation - if a country or people cannot define itself even in relation to 'the Other', then it has no identity whatsoever. The proliferation of a consumerist global culture and society predicated upon the belief in eternal economic progress where few can actually reach the standards set and therefore participate in isn't a good thing for anybody at all.

[QatzelOk]

An uneasy combination of Christianity and The Age of Enlightenment pretty much define western values. America was formed off the back of this as well.

Both communism and Fascism were a sort of counter reaction to this. Both movements creep into parts of what some would consider western also.

I like the names you name, but not the way you describe their relationship. I prefer to talk about how the West likes to be things.

"The West" is Jewish and Christian. And it is these religions because they are both dead religions, and this makes unethical commerce a lot easier to maintain.

The West is unethical commerce, and The West is also all the death and pollution that this entails.

Acid Rain and Napalm are our values.

[Fakestinian]

Take a course on Western Civilization, and make sure you've got a good professor.

I'm surprised Noob neglected to mention rule of law and property rights, as well as governors having the consent of the governed within a form of liberal democracy. Western civilization's got three pillars - (Judeo)Christianity/ethical monotheism, Greek and Roman political institutions and philosophy, and Germanic barbarian culture - the fusion of these three pillars culminated in Western civilization. And yes, I'm well aware that virtually nobody will understand what I'm saying.

As far as the values of Western civilization (forgive the repetition), they're democracy tempered with individual rights (liberal democracy, in a general sense), property rights, and the rule of law combined with due process.

[Andrea_Chenier]

And yes, I'm well aware that virtually nobody will understand what I'm saying.

I don't think so. Nothing of what you said is particularly revolutionary or hard to understand. It's basically what layman already said in a more condensed form (Age of Enlightenment pretty much implies rule of law, property rights and liberal democracy in general as political values). Of course you are right in emphasizing the historically important greco-roman and germanic barbarian aspect of european culture. What I think should be added to all this is the 68-movement induced change towards left-liberal-progressive social values which are now incorporated in the establishment ideology.

[layman]

Fakestinian actually makes good posts.

Its a shame he has to be so rude and condescending to the whole forum for no particular reason.

Only in the Anglosphere can it be said that individualism, free market capitalism and liberal democracy were the most important values.

France contributed a lot in terms of the theory of liberalism. Germany is known for its pioneering of social reforms.

We often look at Britain as being a little ahead of the game in terms of individual freedoms and a limit on the monarchs power. I am not sure if these things were really seen as " the most important values" at the time though.

To all the shit munchers of the 18th-19th century, christian values would trump enlightenment ones by a long shot. To the ruling classes these were also important, as was personal honor loyality to your monarch etc.

[Fakestinian]

Fakestinian actually makes good posts.

Thank you, sir. The feeling is mutual.

Its a shame he has to be so rude and condescending to the whole forum for no particular reason.

Accepting the false premise that I'm "so rude an condescending" to everyone here, let's just say I have my reasons.

France contributed a lot in terms of the theory of liberalism. Germany is known for its pioneering of social reforms.

Definitely.

We often look at Britain as being a little ahead of the game in terms of individual freedoms and a limit on the monarchs power. I am not sure if these things were really seen as " the most important values" at the time though.

We do that because it's closer to us historically and culturally. Sort of like that message on automobile side-mirrors where it says "objects in mirror are closer than they appear", except in a historical sense. Britain sort of achieved the pinnacle of human freedom, culminating in a sort of apex of liberalism (later to be surpassed by America), which is why we view it in the way you described.

To all the shit munchers of the 18th-19th century, christian values would trump enlightenment ones by a long shot. To the ruling classes these were also important, as was personal honor loyality to your monarch etc.

I can tell someone took "Introduction to Western Civilization". My understanding is that the enlightenment is very much a product of Christian values, even if that does seem paradoxical at face values.

[QatzelOk]

Fakestinian actually makes good posts.

Its a shame he has to be so rude and condescending to the whole forum for no particular reason.

I think the reason he's so rude and condescending is to show, in a blatant, impossible-to-miss way, how rude and condescending these kinds of money-fabricated opinions are.

"Take a course on Western Civilization, loser!" is what every drone screams as it lands on an innocent person's wedding party or soccer game on the other side of the world.

"Suck Western values, Palestinians!" is what Israel (and a lot of world Jewry) condescendingly screams with each propaganda campaign or bombardment.

Fakestinian seems to be trying to condense toxic Western arrogance into text, when of course it's actually the ACTIONS of the West that are really poisonous and harmful.

Our words, by hypocritical contrast, are usually sugary sweet and well selected. But not here with Fakeist. With Fakestinian, western words match western actions.

[layman]

I can tell someone took "Introduction to Western Civilization". My understanding is that the enlightenment is very much a product of Christian values, even if that does seem paradoxical at face values.

Oh, you read it too?

I expect there are a lot of books exploring the complex relationship between christianity and the enlightenment. I have read none of them.

The point I was badly making was that the values of the average British farmer were probably very similar to that of the frenchman or German at the time. They would be traditionally christian and have very little influence from enlightenment thinking.

The values of the ruling elites would have been quite different though. Famously in terms of the rights they beleived they deserved in relation to the state and Monarch. Even then, I would suppose it was more related to traditional power play than any real liberal theory or ideology. British elites, merchants etc simply demanded, fought for and recieved a bigger share of power. This acted as a sort of pre-industrial "middle class" which gave us certain advantages.

condescending is to show, in a blatant, impossible-to-miss way, how rude and condescending these kinds of money-fabricated opinions are.

You are probably more condescending but you are polite about it and highly amusing.

[Ummon]

somewhat tangential rant, but I believe "western values" have been shaped by an idealism and naivete brought on by unprecedented wealth fueled by the industrial revolution and cheap fossil fuels. We were able to supply an increasing standard of living which led to these values because they were the mechanism by which that increasing standard of living was maintained. That combined with urbanization made us much more individually focused than our ancestors, however in my opinion it is a byproduct of the amount of material wealth that allows for said "independence" etc to be sustainable. If that situation should change the values would morph to conform to the new reality. However, as we begin to understand complex systems better and how they feed into one another recursively for good or ill I think that will force a further development of egalitarianism and altruism because apparently at large scales in environments with excess resources altruism wins genetically.

[Vyth]

Truth is the preëminent 'value' of Western man. It may be spiritual truth, rational truth, moral truth, 'æsthetic' truth, falsity disguised as truth — truth always stands preëminent. History affords numerous proofs of this. Even the modern tendency to deny the truth affords a strong proof a contrario of the preëminent importance of truth to the Western mind. This belief is reflected even in the self-refuting absurdities of nihilism, relativism, atheism, and materialism. Consider nihilism, for instance; this 'philosophy', by presupposing the truth of its own negation of truth, assigns a superior ontological status to truth with respect to its negation. Thus, even in denying the truth, Westerners display a deeply rooted belief in the supremacy of truth over all other values, proving themselves to be the inheritors of a civilisation that once stood in the light of truth.

[Atlantis]

Individualism is at the basis of all Western values.

Genetically, individualism has been imprinted on Westerner by the wheat farmer who was able to cultivate his field independently of his neighbors, while Asian rice paddy cultivation, which required the community to cooperate for sharing water resources and for maintaining the network of water channels, imprinted collectivism on the gen sequence of Asians.

Ideologically, monotheist Christianity is the starting point of individualism by replacing the pantheon of gods with the one god that is mirrored in the individual soul. Our eternal soul is part of God and God part of our eternal soul.

Politically, the enlightenment, the egalité of the French revolution and the development of humanism further reinforces the idea of individualism.

Artistically, the development of the central perspective during the Italian Renaissance was also important for forming the idea of individualism.

Secularization separated the monotheist god from his counterpart, the individual soul, making the latter all important.

The last 5 centuries have seen the triumph of individualism. But now that we reach the limits of the carrying capacity of the planet, unfettered exploitation of the material world by the all important individual with a never satiated desire for material goods reaches its limits and collective-type societies will prove more successful.

[The Clockwork Rat]

Class conflict and beer.

[QatzelOk]

Truth is the preëminent 'value' of Western man. It may be spiritual truth, rational truth, moral truth, 'æsthetic' truth, falsity disguised as truth — truth always stands preëminent. History affords numerous proofs of this. Even the modern tendency to deny the truth affords a strong proof a contrario of the preëminent importance of truth to the Western mind. This belief is reflected even in the self-refuting absurdities of nihilism, relativism, atheism, and materialism. Consider nihilism, for instance; this 'philosophy', by presupposing the truth of its own negation of truth, assigns a superior ontological status to truth with respect to its negation. Thus, even in denying the truth, Westerners display a deeply rooted belief in the supremacy of truth over all other values, proving themselves to be the inheritors of a civilisation that once stood in the light of truth.

This is completely incorrect.

Truth is an obsession of Modern Western man, but not a value to live by. Modern Western man doesn't live for the truth. He lives from lie to lie. From Machiavelli onward, we have gradually all become the hypocritical and selfish Prince.

Modern Western Man's relationship with the truth is one of longing and romanticism - like an alienated city-dweller who listens to folk music and pines to return to a farm he has never lived on. Modern Western man writes odes to the truth... like the one below.

soundtrack

But his relentless search for "lost truth" just underscores how full of lies Modern Western society is. This is a major flaw that will undo us and maybe everything else with us.

[Vyth]

Modern Western man doesn't live for the truth. He lives from lie to lie. From Machiavelli onward, we have gradually all become the hypocritical and selfish Prince.

Modern Western Man's relationship with the truth is one of longing and romanticism - like an alienated city-dweller who listens to folk music and pines to return to a farm he has never lived on. Modern Western man writes odes to the truth... like the one below.

soundtrack

But his relentless search for "lost truth" just underscores how full of lies Modern Western society is. This is a major flaw that will undo us and maybe everything else with us.

That is mostly congruent with the thesis you design to refute. Modernity is the inversion of Western civilisation; and this entails the negation of the presiding principle on which the West was originally founded. Naturally the modern West is excluded, since it is neither a civilisation, nor the inheritor of any authentic values. The time of Machiavelli marks approximately the commencement of the dismantling of Western civilisation.

[One Degree]

Western civilization is a combination of economics, religion, liberalism, science infatuation and personal rights. This combination makes it impossible to define it as anything other than a hodgepodge of conflicting ideologies. There is no plan, therefore no coherent identity. A plan would be nice.

[QatzelOk]

The time of Machiavelli marks approximately the commencement of the dismantling of Western civilisation.

Before Machiavelli's time (the Renaissance), Europe was a superstitious and backwards warrior continent that just happened to steal back their own culture while they were terrorizing their much more refined and peaceful Muslim neighbors (who had saved their own Plato and Aristotle texts after European Christian and Jewish crazies burned all of their own history.)

Modern Western culture is based on looting and killing. For a few thousand years. That's all "the West" is. A military alliance with a death-wish and super-exaggerated sense of self importance.

The texts of Machiavelli marked the unveiling (in text) of the Emperor's non-clothes. But He has actually always been naked.

Ideologically, monotheist Christianity is the starting point of individualism by replacing the pantheon of gods with the one god that is mirrored in the individual soul.

This is hideously false.

When Europe was forced to become Christian by Rome in the 4th Century, most of the out-of-Rome European natives were nature-worshipers. Only the citizens of Rome were permitted to continue to worship their multiple super-hero gods for a while.

But for the later centuries of totally converted Modern Europeans who spread Christianity (and Modernity and Judeo-Capitalism) all over the world (via war, genocide, replacement colonizers), these colonizing monotheists had actually gone from worshiping nature and the seasons (Animism), to worshiping hats, statues with wings, and ancestors with superpowers (Judeo-Christianity). They hadn't been saved by Judeo-Christianity, they were ruined by it and made more wanting and violent.

soundtrack

[Vyth]

Before Machiavelli's time (the Renaissance), Europe was a superstitious and backwards warrior continent that just happened to steal back their own culture while they were terrorizing their much more refined and peaceful Muslim neighbors (who had saved their own Plato and Aristotle texts after European Christian and Jewish crazies burned all of their own history.)

Your understanding of Mediæval history is darkened not only by an anti-Christian bias which even your 'peaceful Muslims' would regard as grotesque, but distorted by the very "modern Western values" you pretend to despise. In this you are merely going with the flow of modernity. Your description of Christianity and Mediæval Europe reads like an allegory of your own follies and prejudices, disguised as names drawn from history.

[American Serf]

I'm surprised Noob neglected to mention rule of law and property rights, as well as governors having the consent of the governed within a form of liberal democracy. Western civilization's got three pillars - (Judeo)Christianity/ethical monotheism, Greek and Roman political institutions and philosophy, and Germanic barbarian culture - the fusion of these three pillars culminated in Western civilization.

An important point. Let's emphasize that Hellenic and Roman civilizations were not "Western", but pre-Western, and belonged to another sphere. "Western culture" arguably did not begin to emerge until some time after the fall of the western Roman empire to Gothic warlords.

"The West" has meant different things at different times and in different contexts. During the Cold War it was sometimes used to refer to the so-called "first world" (North America, Western Europe, Japan), while "East" could stand in for the "second world" (USSR, Eastern Europe, China). Modifications and various strengths of political parties aside, it still makes sense to characterize that old bipolar world in terms of a capitalist/communist distinction; and I suppose this is why lists of allegedly "Western values" typically include some strongly associated with the capitalist side of the spectrum, which happen to have been (and to remain) most robustly espoused by the Anglophone hegemons of the old "first world".

That usage should in no way suggest that such modern capitalist values have been central to something called "Western culture" from Solon to the present day.