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By anasawad
#14694304
'm interested in this.

What is your best arugment that god doesn't exist ?

And can you prove that god does not exist scientifically and logically, noting that you must provide full bases and support that can not be debunked in anyway.

Specifically the Islamic understanding of god.
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By Zagadka
#14694310
Because of fairy tales.

Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence.
You don't prove a negative.
Burden of proof is on the claim.
Etc etc

You have to prove god exists. Otherwise, I demand that you disprove that Thor exists.
By layman
#14694312
What Sab said.

Why am I expected to prove an Arab paedophile warlord from 2000 years ago wasn't talking to God?
By yiostheoy
#14694324
In order to "prove" that "THERE IS NO GOD" you would need to climb into your space ship and cruise every inch of the 14 billion light year Universe and search every square meter of it.

Then you could report back to Earth after 28 billion years of travelling at the speed of light there and back again that you did NOT find any God/Gods and therefore you have "proved" at least to yourself in the physical world that "there is no god".

As far as the second part of the "kalima shahadat" goes -- "BUT ALLAH" -- that is easier to disprove.

The evidence of disproof is all circumstantial however:

1 - First you must read the Quran which is a tedious chore for a tedious rant which has no visible literary or spiritual value; it is simply the insane rant of a deranged person; this much is readily apparent when you compare it to any other religious text in Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, or Hinduism.

2 - From the context of the Quran itself you can gather that someone supposedly "Muhammad" plagiarized Christianity by taking a particular archangel named Gabriel in the Greek New Testament, who is also mentioned briefly in the Hebrew Tenakh, and treats that archangel as a revelator. Aside from the plagiarism, this archangel never served as a revelator in either religion before.

3 - When you compare the modern chapter order of the Quran with their original chronological order, you can easily tell you are being duped by the imams who compiled it.

4 - Aside from the Arab Conquest of the 7th to 14th Century -- 700 years -- there has been no visible contribution by Islam to world culture or world peace; it is merely a primitive desert mythology which is violent, irrational, pedophilic, and nonsensical.

Q.E.D.

........................................................................................

layman wrote:What Sab said.

Why am I expected to prove an Arab paedophile warlord from 2000 years ago wasn't talking to God?

Maybe if one of your kids wanted to become radicalized and put on a suicide vest or grab an AK or AR and shoot up a bunch of people, you might want to try to persuade him or her that Islam is crap.

Ultimately though you would need to make sure you call the FBI too.

The wife of the Orlando shooter is going to be in a lot of trouble soon for not having done so.

........................................................................................

Zagadka wrote:Because of fairy tales.

Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence.
You don't prove a negative.
Burden of proof is on the claim.
Etc etc

You have to prove god exists. Otherwise, I demand that you disprove that Thor exists.


Thor, Odin, Baldr, and Freyja are not that different from the Catholic God(s) -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- and Holy Mary Queen of the Apostles. It's just a slightly different story given to a slightly different Nordic seafaring culture.

Same is true of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades of the ancient Greeks, or Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto of the ancient Romans.

All civilizations have their Gods. And as Immanuel Kant once said, if there were no gods then it would be necessary for humankind to invent one.

Without a God or Gods it would be impossible to reconcile the philosophical paradoxes of First Cause, Prime Mover, Artistic Artificer, and Purposeful Designer -- which is God.

Presumably you have read and studied Tomas Aquinas? If not then you should google him and follow the cites.
Last edited by yiostheoy on 22 Jun 2016 19:30, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#14694338
God is like time, it is a human interpretation of how we perceive the unknowable. Questions like what was before the before, or what is beyond the boundaries of a infinite universe.
User avatar
By Zagadka
#14694341
yiostheoy wrote:Thor, Odin, Baldr, and Freyja are not that different from the Catholic God(s) -- Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- and Holy Mary Queen of the Apostles. It's just a slightly different story given to a slightly different Nordic seafaring culture.

Same is true of Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades of the ancient Greeks, or Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto of the ancient Romans.

All civilizations have their Gods. And as Immanuel Kant once said, if there were no gods then it would be necessary for humankind to invent one.

Which was kinda my point on the whole proving a negative thing.

We can't deal with many unknowns and require comfort that there is order or a point to things.
By anasawad
#14694343
Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence.
You don't prove a negative.
Burden of proof is on the claim.

Actually if we want to look at it logically.
Logic says god or generally a supernatural force external to the universe can exist.
Scientifically, an external force to the universe in which created the universe is the most accepted theory by most scientists.

So in general, the possiblity that god exist is there. And supported one that is.

And general, there are 3 points here.
First, the existence of a supernatural force who some call god and other call physical forces has been here since the dawn of humanity.
While the claim that god doesn't exist is a new one so its the one to have to provide support for it.
seond. Since both the claim the god exist and the claim that he doesnt are claims. Then both should provide proof or foundation.
I have debated on this topic many times here and i provided logical proof that god or atleast that an external force exist, and i supported it with scientific theories. No one debunked my arguments so far.
third of all. what you said here and said by practically most people who say god doesn't exist is a low-grade method to skipping arguments. Basically saying i don't have to provide a proof, you have to.

So what is it ?

Otherwise, I demand that you disprove that Thor exists.

Thor and most ancient mythology do exist.
Archeological discoveries do show us that there were civilizations that we still haven't discovered traces off but gradually discovering them.
There is a thread about one right now.
And most Greek, Roman and well ancient mythological charactors are in most probably leaders or wise men of older societies that over time the people start forming stories about them making them supernatural and stuff and they started worshiping them.
But in general, they are most likely to have existed.
Same to the pre-Zoroastrian gods in Persia whom when looking at the told history were actual leaders.

Why am I expected to prove an Arab paedophile warlord from 2000 years ago wasn't talking to God?

If you want to claim the God does not exist, you have to proof that he doesn't or provide a logical or scientific explanation he doesn't.
As said i have debated this over and over again here, and so far i debunked all the said proofs, and almost none of mine of his existence in a logical and a scientific way were debunked.
So....

And Aisha was 17 in recorded history.


In order to "prove" that "THERE IS NO GOD" you would need to climb into your space ship and cruise every inch of the 14 billion light year Universe and search every square meter of it.

Then you could report back to Earth after 28 billion years of travelling at the speed of light there and back again that you did NOT find any God/Gods and therefore you have "proved" at least to yourself in the physical world that "there is no god".

Use scientific and logical theories to do so. 'm waiting.

1 - First you must read the Quran which is a tedious chore for a tedious rant which has no visible literary or spiritual value; it is simply the insane rant of a deranged person; this much is readily apparent when you compare it to any other religious text in Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, or Hinduism.

Obviously you read the Quran so well that you have no idea what its about or anything in it.

2 - From the context of the Quran itself you can gather that someone supposedly "Muhammad" plagiarized Christianity by taking a particular archangel named Gabriel in the Greek New Testament, who is also mentioned briefly in the Hebrew Tenakh, and treats that archangel as a revelator. Aside from the plagiarism, this archangel never served as a revelator in either religion before.

Anther post showing that you don't know what the Quran or Islamic spiritual side talks about.

3 - When you compare the modern chapter order of the Quran with their original chronological order, you can easily tell you are being duped by the imams who compiled it.

The comiplation of the Quran doesn't effect anything since it was compiled as each Sora on its own.
Each Sora has its own meaning and before it was compiled each was on its own.
The verses inside of them are still in the same order in each Quran that existed from the days of the prophet until now. Its been checked so don't try. '


4 - Aside from the Arab Conquest of the 7th to 14th Century -- 700 years -- there has been no visible contribution by Islam to world culture or world peace; it is merely a primitive desert mythology which is violent, irrational, pedophilic, and nonsensical.

And yet anther time you proof you have not read a single history book in your entire life.
By yiostheoy
#14694344
Zagadka wrote:Which was kinda my point on the whole proving a negative thing.

We can't deal with many unknowns and require comfort that there is order or a point to things.

Philosophically speaking you have indirectly stumbled upon the proof of God called "Purposeful Designer", Zag.

Statistically and scientifically there is no reason for there to be purposeful design to existence and yet there is. This Purposeful Design is God.

Proving a negative is of course a rhetorical fallacy which usually occurs when some fool says "prove there is NOT ...". The link by N^G is the best logical refutation of any attempt to prove a negative, however I have found that one only works with extremely intelligent people with relative high I/Q's over 150 (genius). Therefore I use my spaceship example instead for everybody else.
Last edited by yiostheoy on 22 Jun 2016 19:36, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#14694347
The Sabbaticus wrote:The onus isn't on non-believers to 'prove a negative'. :lol:



Can anyone prove that dark matter exists? The only evidence is how there is a gravitational force that is not accounted for, and scientist label it dark matter. Why do you not accept the same argument for God? I think many of you Atheist's have double standards.
By yiostheoy
#14694351
anasawad wrote:Actually if we want to look at it logically.
Logic says god or generally a supernatural force external to the universe can exist.
Scientifically, an external force to the universe in which created the universe is the most accepted theory by most scientists.

So in general, the possiblity that god exist is there. And supported one that is.

And general, there are 3 points here.
First, the existence of a supernatural force who some call god and other call physical forces has been here since the dawn of humanity.
While the claim that god doesn't exist is a new one so its the one to have to provide support for it.
seond. Since both the claim the god exist and the claim that he doesnt are claims. Then both should provide proof or foundation.
I have debated on this topic many times here and i provided logical proof that god or atleast that an external force exist, and i supported it with scientific theories. No one debunked my arguments so far.
third of all. what you said here and said by practically most people who say god doesn't exist is a low-grade method to skipping arguments. Basically saying i don't have to provide a proof, you have to.

So what is it ?


Thor and most ancient mythology do exist.
Archeological discoveries do show us that there were civilizations that we still haven't discovered traces off but gradually discovering them.
There is a thread about one right now.
And most Greek, Roman and well ancient mythological charactors are in most probably leaders or wise men of older societies that over time the people start forming stories about them making them supernatural and stuff and they started worshiping them.
But in general, they are most likely to have existed.
Same to the pre-Zoroastrian gods in Persia whom when looking at the told history were actual leaders.


If you want to claim the God does not exist, you have to proof that he doesn't or provide a logical or scientific explanation he doesn't.
As said i have debated this over and over again here, and so far i debunked all the said proofs, and almost none of mine of his existence in a logical and a scientific way were debunked.
So....

And Aisha was 17 in recorded history.



Use scientific and logical theories to do so. 'm waiting.


Obviously you read the Quran so well that you have no idea what its about or anything in it.


Anther post showing that you don't know what the Quran or Islamic spiritual side talks about.


The comiplation of the Quran doesn't effect anything since it was compiled as each Sora on its own.
Each Sora has its own meaning and before it was compiled each was on its own.
The verses inside of them are still in the same order in each Quran that existed from the days of the prophet until now. Its been checked so don't try. '



And yet anther time you proof you have not read a single history book in your entire life.


A, all of your thinking and ranting is fallacy driven, and your favorites are vociferousness and ad hominem. This is typical Islamic and also Muslim.

You are just doing what you have been brainwashed to do your whole life long. Bravo.
By layman
#14694352
I never claimed to prove God doesn't exist. I haven't proved many things.

I just say he doesn't because there is no evidence whatsoever. Also, believers make me suspicious because they use dodgy logic like you are doing to push the burden of proof.

As for Islam specifically, there is even less evidence of Mohammed than Jesus. He probably didn't exist at all. A lot of the stories about him are supported by oral traditions which are not worth the paper they are printed on.
User avatar
By Zagadka
#14694354
anasawad wrote:Actually if we want to look at it logically.
Logic says god or generally a supernatural force external to the universe can exist.
Scientifically, an external force to the universe in which created the universe is the most accepted theory by most scientists.

That has no bearing on an intelligent designer.

Since both the claim the god exist and the claim that he doesnt are claims. Then both should provide proof or foundation.

Can't. Prove. Negative.

Your argument thus far is that you have no burden of proof. You have to establish your arguments as proofs before you can ask someone to disprove them. You've said "we can't explain how the universe started, therefore there is an intelligent designer", which is pure fantasy.

Basically saying i don't have to provide a proof, you have to.

So what is it

... can't... prove... negative... There has not been one tiny iota of information justifying the concept of an intelligent designer.

Can you prove what started the expansion of the universe?

Thor and most ancient mythology do exist.

... no, they are mythological characters, not gods. Unless you are pointing towards every god being a function of mythology, that kinda disproves your entire "god exists" thing. Your "proof" that Thor actually exists is that he is a mythological construct. That is no different than any other god or gods.

So you prove that Thor actually exists, I'll prove that your god actually exists.
By mikema63
#14694359
I can't prove god doesn't exist. I also can't prove that leprechauns don't exist.
By yiostheoy
#14694366
Oxymoron wrote:God is like time, it is a human interpretation of how we perceive the unknowable. Questions like what was before the before, or what is beyond the boundaries of a infinite universe.

Although God and His/Her fellow Gods seem very shy and reclusive, that does not mean They are completely "unknowable". It only means They have not formally introduced themselves to YOU yet.

Q.E.D. A-priori.

In addition, it would appear that certain persons in the past DID have some kind of epiphany with the God(s) and these people then passed on their revelations to posterity.

Zoroaster strikes me as someone who was extremely bright beyond human possibility and therefore most likely he did have such an epiphany with the God(s).

Moses was apparently next, and he leaves us with a very vivid description of the God's laws as well -- very similar to Zoroaster's.

The apostles of Jesus seem to be next in line, although they take a reformist approach to what they had previously inherited from Moses, and as such Peter and Paul change back many of the rules. Now circumcision and kosher foods were no longer relevant, and the Jews themselves were no longer any more chosen than the Greeks or the Romans or the Syrians.

Constantine also seems to have had an epiphany, and as a result what he did next against all odds changed the entire world for every living person who ever came afterward, even those living in remote communities in East Asia indirectly at least.

Q.E.D. A-posteriori.

So be careful when you say "unknowable" because that would be essentially ordaining a negative -- which this thread has already logically and allegorically demonstrated is impossible.
By anasawad
#14694368
As for Islam specifically, there is even less evidence of Mohammed than Jesus. He probably didn't exist at all. A lot of the stories about him are supported by oral traditions which are not worth the paper they are printed on.

There are actual records, battles, evidence of hem.
The period was recorded in writting first hand in it not after it.

Your argument thus far is that you have no burden of proof. You have to establish your arguments as proofs before you can ask someone to disprove them. You've said "we can't explain how the universe started, therefore there is an intelligent designer", which is pure fantasy.

Since i did made the arguments many times in this forum then i have so far done my part.
On the other hand not only no one debunked them and those who tried so far failed, but also no one gave logical explanation of why not.

Can you prove what started the expansion of the universe?

Scientifically, yea its already observed and proven.

... no, they are mythological characters, not gods. Unless you are pointing towards every god being a function of mythology, that kinda disproves your entire "god exists" thing. Your "proof" that Thor actually exists is that he is a mythological construct. That is no different than any other god or gods.

Pagan "gods" were actual people whom stories were constructed around them.
Thats the case for almost every known called "god" in Persia so far and it most probably is the same for Greeks.

... can't... prove... negative... There has not been one tiny iota of information justifying the concept of an intelligent designer.


Since our entire scientific understanding is based on debunking theories then debunking the concept of god should be provided. Since none has done that so far. I assume there isn't any ?

'm not asking you to proof negative. 'm asking you to provide a logical explanation why god doesn't exist, thus a logical explanation why the concept of god is not right.

'm always the one debating it and proofing logically that god exists and scientifically the he could and might very much exist. Now its your turn to debunk the concept.



And giving such scenarios of spaceship and what ever is just trolling . Use logic when debunking it.
By mikema63
#14694378
There is no way to formulate a logical proof that God doesn't or cannot exist. I would have to use physical evidence and since god is beyond, above, or outside the universe and time or whatever special pleading is used he doesn't necessarily have to leave physical proof and will hide his presence to test our faith or whatever.

I don't believe in God because I see no evidence for god and he has not seen fit to reveal himself to me. It's not because I have some logical proof or argument that he doesn't exist. I also don't have any logical argument against invisible pink unicorns.
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