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By noemon
#14772513
QatzelOk wrote:This is like saying that slavery "is the most efficient way" to produce cotton. Your post is yelling out: "Chain yourself to a dungeon wall and let efficiency do whatever it wants to you!"


Yes that is true, but capitalism is even more efficient that slavery.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14772514
noemon wrote:Yes that is true, but capitalism is even more efficient that slavery.

Only because capitalism uses brainwashing techniques that weren't available to slave owners.
User avatar
By noemon
#14772518
QatzelOk wrote:Only because capitalism uses brainwashing techniques that weren't available to slave owners.


It helps to be even more efficient.
User avatar
By jakell
#14772526
QatzelOk wrote:If I want to focus, I'll focus on the thread theme which is We belong to them.

You seem to want everyone to focus on soil, which doesn't surprise me. One of the tricks the elite has used to keep "its dummies" totally dependent on their rentier-class structure is to create an education system (and economy) that stresses specialization rather than a global understanding of principles.

Your obsession with trivial detail is a perfect example. You seem unable to grasp the big picture of this thread. And specialization (and insistence on focussing on details that you can excel at) is a huge part of the reason that we belong to them.

A house-dog would insist that that stranger who just walked by the bungalow "smelled weird," and this same owned-dog can't understand that noise pollution (like his constant barking at strangers) is a problem. His pathetic slave-like existence is only justified by his "useful" barking. Belonging to them reduces his existence to barking at strangers to prove his usefulness to the people who feed him.

And if you confront this house-dog on his non-stop barking, he will stop you and ask how much you really know about smells. Not as much as him, obviously. (End of conversation about noise pollution)

Belonging to other people means never understanding the world in which you live. And this creates monsters and monstrous societies full of people who ask "What kind of waterboarding is most humane?" rather than looking at the big picture of torture.


See above. Belonging to them means never understanding higher principles.


I'll agree it is a detail, but it's not trivial. Like I said, "you don't know much about soil". Really though, if you want folks to focus on the bigger picture you shouldn't post about lawns and insecticides.

It may help to keep a little insecticide handy:

Image
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14772545
noemon wrote:It helps to be even more efficient.

"Efficiency" is defined, in a specialized system, as "that which accelerates Grand Projects which our leaders tell us will take us to some kind of collective heaven."

So by belonging to other humans, we accelerate Grand Projects like Pyramid construction, the tapping of all the world's oil, and the remaking of society into something new and more easily controllable.

Belonging to them makes Grand Projects come to life!

Image
"Efficiency" as defined by nuclear-is-safe specialists

Because of public subservience to the wills of their leaders (belonging to them), Japan was able to build nuclear power plants in earthquake and tsunami zones. Belonging to them was the only way Japan could "compete" with other nations that belong to equally wise masters.
User avatar
By noemon
#14772546
QatzelOk wrote:Belonging to them was the only way Japan could "compete" with other nations that belong to equally wise masters.

Still better than going extinct as did those who could not compete.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14772548
noemon wrote:Still better than going extinct as did those who could not compete.

Being killed by humans who Belong to Other Humans is not the same thing as going extinct.

Going extinct is total and final.

Belonging to Others removes the capacity to survive by separating humans from their survival instincts.

In many cases, Belong-to-Other humans have killed healthier and more sustainable human societies, thus accelerating their own extinction. Of course, this is unknowingly. Because specialized human pets can't know anything about how to survive - only how to compete for the approval of their masters.

This is the major flaw in specialization and social hierarchy. It leads to environmental vandalism and extinction.
User avatar
By noemon
#14772549
QatzelOk wrote:Being killed by humans who Belong to Other Humans is not the same thing as going extinct.
Going extinct is total and final.


A lot of peoples have gone extinct totally & finally.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14772551
noemon wrote:A lot of peoples have gone extinct totally & finally.

Yes, and they were killed en masse by people who belonged to other people, and thus, feel very little remorse for their atrocities against others and the entire earth.

Belonging to other people is addictive because, once you've removed your own responsibility for your actions and thoughts, you an commit a lot of atrocities against others. And then you can't really go back to accountability for your actions without major self loathing.

The elite knows this. They hint at our "original sin" and "collective sin" in order to keep us obedient. Bike helmet laws, recycling obsession, jay-walking tickets, helping Syrian refugees exclusively, helping Libyans by bombing their country to pieces... all are examples of good dogs listening to their masters' voices and doing great harm to others (and themselves) in the process.

Genociding others for our masters brings us one step closer to extinction. Belonging to Them doesn't mean that They can prevent extinction, only that our "faith" (in our masters) has lead us to great danger. Like trusting the Casino to help you pay your rent - you may win a few times, but you will eventually lose all your rent money to the house.

jakell wrote:Image

Actually, if your re-read the OP more carefully trying to understand the metaphors, this photo is of "Us" and not of them. Metaphors are important in the Agora, while lawn pointers belong in Hobbies and Pastimes. :lol:
Last edited by QatzelOk on 05 Feb 2017 17:43, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By noemon
#14772553
Why would I want to be among those who become liable to go extinct by not being competitive enough against stronger dogs?
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14772556
noemon wrote:Why would I want to be among those who become liable to go extinct by not being competitive enough against stronger dogs?

This is the dynamic that forces most people to act like dogs. "Obey me or the other (more obedient) dogs will kill you.

This has stripped us of so much of our freedom and quality of life. Freedom, in a "We belong to them" world, means the freedom to chose your collar, a slightly longer leash, and a few options for food-dish and dog-house placement.
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By noemon
#14772559
It is what it is, "dog eat dog" world. Ok, we both know that, we both agree on that, so what's next?
User avatar
By jakell
#14772591
QatzelOk wrote:Actually, if your re-read the OP more carefully trying to understand the metaphors, this photo is of "Us" and not of them. Metaphors are important in the Agora, while lawn pointers belong in Hobbies and Pastimes. :lol:


What about metaphors arising from lawns (for instance), gardening and nature in general? You underrate contact and interaction with nature as a source of thought, reflection and inspiration.
ie. it's not simply a vehicle for you (or anyone) to engage in Armageddon porn

Image

(I'm English BTW, best not to mention lawns to us, they are almost a religion)

...We followed without question the tradition that the lawn should primarily be Good Fella domain. He it is who maintains its trim cut and decides whether it should be in Wembley stripes or some other mowing pattern. On the rare occasions when it needs watering, the Piglet begs to join in, dancing and laughing in the combination of green grass, glittering sprays of water and evening sunlight. Like all natural ground the lawn is prone to weeds, in particular clover which spreads happily through the grass stems. Rather than spray it with chemicals, I occasionally fetch out a small garden fork and dig out the weeds, gently replacing any grass tufts I have dug out by mistake.
Although we will never be able to completely clear the lawn of weeds - notwithstanding Goscinny and Uderzo's suggestion that we spend a couple of thousand years on the task, there is something calming and satisfying about ten or twenty minutes spent clearing a small patch of ground in the impossible ambition of creating a flawless patch of green in our damp and shady back garden. In that sense, we do now have a British Ryōan-ji. Just as the monks at the temple of the dragon at peace achieve tranquillity by raking out the sand in the garden each morning after the hundreds of visitors have tramped over it all day long, we catch a few moments of peace in the land of the red dragon, trimming the grass, watering it and clearing the continuous settlement of weeds in our green and pleasant back garden.


http://anthropologicalmum.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/lawn-meditation.html
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14772739
noemon wrote:It is what it is, "dog eat dog" world. Ok, we both know that, we both agree on that, so what's next?

But as well as dog-eat-dog, it's also His Master's Voice and The Invisible Hand - both references to how the vast majority of humans are reduced in status to dependent pets. Another expression is "don't bite the hand that feeds you," which is only possible as an expression because we are all so dependent on our sick system to feed us.

Belonging to other people is slavery. Slaves aren't allowed to think for themselves. So most of what passes for "thought" in our society is just dogs barking at shadows. Dogs are too ignorant to understand actual threats to their species.

But how in the world can dogs overthrow their masters? Obviously, real dogs have been dumbed down through selective breeding. But what about humanity? Have we been dumbed down by the same processes?

jakell wrote:I'm English BTW, best not to mention lawns to us, they are almost a religion

So is social control. Almost a religion.
User avatar
By jakell
#14772852
QatzelOk wrote:But as well as dog-eat-dog, it's also His Master's Voice and The Invisible Hand - both references to how the vast majority of humans are reduced in status to dependent pets. Another expression is "don't bite the hand that feeds you," which is only possible as an expression because we are all so dependent on our sick system to feed us.

Belonging to other people is slavery. Slaves aren't allowed to think for themselves. So most of what passes for "thought" in our society is just dogs barking at shadows. Dogs are too ignorant to understand actual threats to their species.

But how in the world can dogs overthrow their masters? Obviously, real dogs have been dumbed down through selective breeding. But what about humanity? Have we been dumbed down by the same processes?


Dogs dogs dogs..

Amusing use of the word 'real' here, and an opportunity for Wolves, Coyotes and Hyenas (etc) to make use of the 'no real dog' fallacy. I tried to point out the fallacy but their collective howling drowned me out.
A real dog wouldn't think twice before shitting on my lawn, so I'd better not antagonise them.

ETA: to be accurate it should be the 'no true dog' fallacy
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14773372
jakell wrote:Dogs dogs dogs..

Amusing use of the word 'real' here, and an opportunity for Wolves, Coyotes and Hyenas (etc) to make use of the 'no real dog' fallacy.

Dogs were created (by men) to be owned by humans. Their entire existence has been commodified. They are the embodiment of property ownership. "Growl! Woof! Woof! Stay the hail off-a mah propetai!"

And humans have been on the same road since civilization began as well. Genetic selection aimed at creating dumb worker bees and soldiers.

Dogs provide a good example of the dangers of "being owned." They are totally dependent on the current system, as they didn't evolve naturally from a natural environment. They emerged from a fake, human-created environment that isn't sustainable.

The lives of dogs: total solitude, total dependence, total parasitism, total frustration of their natural instincts.

All the barking in the world can't make this look attractive (to non-dogs).

.......

Carly Simon lyrics: "You belong to me"

Carly Simon is the popstar daughter of Simon and Schuster publishing. That's how she got to be a mega-hit-singer despite having a range of less than one octave. Saxophone licks and much more vocally-talented backup singers are used to fill in the holes where her vocal range ought to be.

The lyrics of the soundtrack to this thread (You belong to me) were carefully selected for their pertinence. Remember, as one of the central families of American propaganda, the Simons can speak with the narrative voice of God (whom we all belong to). And Carly seems to be doing this in this song that is disguised to be read (by half-interested radio listeners) as the miserably words of a spurned lover - a common theme of pop earworms.

Why'd you tell me this
Were you looking for my reaction
(She's warning the public to choose its words carefully when addressing its gods)

What do you need to know
Don't you know I'll always be your girl
(You don't need knowledge because I'll always be your god - your superior.' Let me do the thinking,' she seems to be saying)

You don't have to prove to me
You're beautiful to strangers
(Forget any altruistic acts that are aimed at pleasing nobodies like yourself. These acts are meaningless to the gods. Just please me!)

I've got loving eyes
Of my own
(I am Big Brother. I can see everything you do. You can't escape my control.)

You belong to me! (repeated ad nauseum)
(Repetition is the most common propaganda technique, especially when coupled with emotional transfer - like the way this song transfers the emotion of a spurned lover in order to reinforce cultural hegemony.)

soundtrack
User avatar
By jakell
#14773380
QatzelOk wrote:Dogs were created (by men) to be owned by humans. Their entire existence has been commodified. They are the embodiment of property ownership. "Growl! Woof! Woof! Stay the hail off-a mah propetai!"

And humans have been on the same road since civilization began as well. Genetic selection aimed at creating dumb worker bees and soldiers.

Dogs provide a good example of the dangers of "being owned." They are totally dependent on the current system, as they didn't evolve naturally from a natural environment. They emerged from a fake, human-created environment that isn't sustainable.

The lives of dogs: total solitude, total dependence, total parasitism, total frustration of their natural instincts.

All the barking in the world can't make this look attractive (to non-dogs).



Are you suggesting that humans have been subject to artificial (you say genetic) selection?
I don't think you can support this and the first question (of several) that comes to mind is "by whom?"

I suppose we have selected amongst ourselves for certain social attributes that have enabled our survival, but this is no different now to the more tribal times you seem to favour. Again this isn't really artifical selection (there is no selector), but a natural extension of our innate tendencies.
User avatar
By QatzelOk
#14773546
jakell wrote:Are you suggesting that humans have been subject to artificial (you say genetic) selection?
I don't think you can support this and the first question (of several) that comes to mind is "by whom?"

We have been forced to chose mates based on criteria that was invented/made necessary by human elites who practiced behaviorism.

Poverty has been used to force certain ethnicities and personality types to produce less babies.

The perfect parents, in our system, are docile and meek, just like the wolves that were selected to create dogs.

Also, I don't need to "support" this. It's a known fact that just requires a bit of thought on the part of the reader. Of course, if the reader doesn't want to think critically, he can always rely on the tired memes of mass media and religion to steer the argument back to something.... docile and meek.

Belonging to other creatures means never having to think critically ever again.
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By jakell
#14773691
'Elites' are a convenient ghost in the machine to pin stuff on, not dissimilar to God or aliens.

QatzelOk wrote:Also, I don't need to "support" this. It's a known fact that just requires a bit of thought on the part of the reader...


Of course, you don't need to do this, but if you want people to take your theory seriously then it may be a good idea to flesh it out.

It's actually not as inaccessible as some might think. We understand the mechanisms of evolution and, to a degree, of evolutionary psychology, so there is actually some solid science upon which you can make comparisons and locate clues about how and when we might have been 'engineered'.
This is not unlike theories of how we have been physically engineered in our evolution, that one usually gets pinned on aliens though.
Last edited by jakell on 08 Feb 2017 12:11, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14773692
Also, I don't need to "support" this. It's a known fact that just requires a bit of thought on the part of the reader. Of course, if the reader doesn't want to think critically, he can always rely on the tired memes of mass media and religion to steer the argument back to something.... docile and meek.


I don't know how much of this is deliberate, but it is something I enjoy thinking and theorizing about. Take the more extreme posters for example. We know that everything we know is stored along with sights, smells, sounds, and emotions that occurred at the time we learned each thing. Does this mean our more extreme views were learned from very emotional presentations? We are resistant to changing them due to the emotion embedded with them? This is of course why emotional propaganda can have such long term effects. Is it possible for us to even have an unbiased thought considering how we store information? Curious to hear other opinions.

Edit: I often think of @Rhetoric Thugs posts in relation to this. The media message is saturated with emotional triggers.

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