A rational society and how it might actually be achieved - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14793382
Last year, the physicist and science popularizer Neil DeGrasse Tyson suggested a form of government called "Rationalia" whose description was short enough to fit into a single tweet, which said:

"Earth needs a virtual country: #Rationalia, with a one-line Constitution: All policy shall be based on the weight of evidence"

There was a lot of negative backlash to this idea. Some of it was justified in my opinion. For me, the central issue with his concept was that no mention of utility or preference was made anywhere in his proposal. For example, the late Nat Hentoff was an outspoken "pro-lifer", but he was also an atheist, and so likely saw the evidence in much the same way as atheists who consider themselves pro-life, differing in the interpretation of said evidence and preferences over states of affairs.

That being said, I don't at all balk at the idea of building a more rational world than the present one. The question is how to achieve this outcome. Unfortunately, NDT subscribes to the woolly-minded humanistic notion that children are "born scientists" and have this universal innate tendency quashed by Prussian-style authority figures early in their lives, as here:

[youtube]bvFOeysaNAY[/youtube]

There is absolutely no evidence from psychology that supports this popular but most likely utterly false claim. There is, on the other hand, evidence from psychology that shows that heredity plays a substantial role in shaping major psychological traits and that scientists and other creative professionals tend to differ systematically from normal people on these traits. A less palatable but more defensible point of view is that the lack of scientific or, more broadly speaking, rational thinking in today's society and in all previous societies, is that people generally aren't intelligent enough to practice it, and/or have some kind of aversion to thinking.

At this point, the outlook for a more rational world looks quite bleak. If people are by nature typically too deficient to become the creators of that new world, how can it be brought into being? For me, the answer is the combination of new technologies and old rivalries. Specifically, when I say "new technologies", I am referring to the combination of nanotechnology, biotechnology, information science and cognitive science sometimes known by the acronym "NBIC". I first learned of this acronym from the report Converging Technologies for Improving Human Performance, commissioned by the NSF and Department of Commerce in 2002 for assessing the future impact of these technologies. It concludes that technologies such as gene therapy and artificial intelligence will play an increasingly strong role in society in the coming decades. This report, as well as other sources, note, not in quite as blunt terms as I am using, but note nonetheless, that the successful adoption of these technologies may well afford the adopters a great advantage, in both economic and military terms, over those who do not.

Early indicators about where events are headed fully support the notion that we are entering into a new kind of arms race. Where the arms race of the middle 20th century revolved around a particular type of weapon and defending against it, here the competition will be in attainment and use of an abstract concept: knowledge. The US military research agency DARPA is a particularly interesting bellwether of things to come. Their stated purpose for years has been to prevent "strategic surprise" and so what research they are funding now can be seen as an indication of how it is believed war will be prepared for, deterred and fought in the coming years. When viewing a list of DARPA's current research projects on their website, it becomes clear that most of the projects in one way or another have something to do with using data and knowledge effectively, whether that be by a human, a machine, or some combination of the two. DARPA's research interests, among other recent events, strongly suggest that it is gradually being recognized that the ultimate weapon is not the thermonuclear bomb, but knowledge itself. Sunzi's nearly timeless classic, The Art of War, placed great emphasis on commanding with extensive knowledge of the state of affairs while keeping the enemy in the dark. There may be no greater way of achieving this outcome than by using emerging NBIC technology to surpass the merely human cognitive ability of one's rivals altogether. In a recent TED talk, the neuroscientist and author Sam Harris discussed just what sort of implications the achievement of artificial general intelligence in the military arena:

[youtube]8nt3edWLgIg[/youtube]

At about the 9:30 mark:

"And what would the Russians or the Chinese do if they heard that some company in Silicon Valley was about to deploy a superintelligent AI? This machine would be capable of waging war, whether terrestrial or cyber, with unprecedented power. This is a winner-take-all scenario. To be six months ahead of the competition here is to be 500,000 years ahead, at a minimum. So it seems that even mere rumors of this kind of breakthrough could cause our species to go berserk."

An interesting property of this ultimate weapon is that it is not generally suspect to the "guns and butter" trade-off. That is to say, for example, that—putting aside certain philosophical issues—the technology that makes machines at least appear to behave with considerable intelligence as drone aircraft may also be set loose on things like cancer research, if it is sufficiently domain-general (and most recent developments in AI have tended strongly towards domain-generality). As said, these technologies will also be very important for economic and not only military competitiveness in the future. Just as it is possible that augmented humans and/or intelligent robots may one day be capable of strategic and tactical thinking beyond any "ordinary" human, so too is it possible that these beings may be capable of economic productivity requiring knowledge entirely beyond the ordinary human's comprehension. (For comparison, there are no industrial mills among the great apes, and the only tools they are capable of manufacturing are very crude indeed.) In this way, NBIC technologies directed towards the greater production and use of knowledge will not merely make a nation much stronger in wartime, but at all times.

The impression I hope the reader is getting at this point is that current technological trends harnessed to old national rivalries for world power will lead to a future where rationality has an exalted place in the world, but I have often been struck by how ironic it is that most of those, at least as far as I've seen, who put the most explicit emphasis on a future guided by reason, namely secular humanists and theistic liberals of similar inclinations, are not really in the vanguard of reform towards this goal at all. A rational future is possible, and even quite likely, but it won't come about because of a deep affection and wonder for human nature as it is, combined with the gentle nurturing of those noble traits that are already present in humankind, as these people suggest. Rather, it will come about because people fear falling too far behind their rivals in other nations, that their nation will be subjected to the indignity of becoming a permanent vassal state—or perhaps something much worse. (Appeals to mercy predicated on the common humanity of all parties involved in a dispute were sometimes effective during the last arms race. In the coming arms race, there may eventually be no common humanity to speak of. In turn, "we share the same biology, regardless of ideology" might well then of course fall on deaf ears, because it will simply be untrue.) I share the humanist's belief that the world will most likely be won over to reason one day, but not because people will eventually recognize it as intrinsically virtuous, but because their only alternative will be to live in very great dread of what might happen to them if they don't change.
#14793387
Rationality cannot tell you what to want. It cannot tell you how to be happy. It can tell you, within limits, how to achieve what you want.

The weight of evidence may, for instance, tell you that AGW is making the earth less livable over time. But it cannot make you care.
#14793399
To my mind, a strong drive towards rationality is the surest guarantor of the attainment of any other goals one might have. This is something Harris talks about in that TED video of his. To some extent, albeit very imperfectly, evolution has already favored this outcome. Now what remains is to perfect this trait. Anyway, this is what Harris said:

"The second assumption is that we will keep going. We will continue to improve our intelligent machines. And given the value of intelligence—I mean, intelligence is either the source of everything we value or we need it to safeguard everything we value. It is our most valuable resource. So we want to do this. We have problems that we desperately need to solve. We want to cure diseases like Alzheimer's and cancer. We want to understand economic systems. We want to improve our climate science. So we will do this, if we can. The train is already out of the station, and there's no brake to pull."
#14793403
A further goal achieved by attaining higher intelligence that is less frequently brought up, but certainly in keeping with the theme of the OP, is not becoming an easy prey item for those in some other country who have attained this higher intelligence.

There could be something of a Red Queen effect here, though, of course. But I imagine most will ultimately see running as better than falling behind.
#14793411
What is rational to one person is irrational to another. The human psyche lets us all make our own minds/opinions on things. We alone decide what is right and what is wrong. And this can be on a number of issues. Whether legal or religious. For example, posters on here feel no remorse for illegal activities they either do or aware of like smoking drugs (mentioned numerous times on here) or as written only yesterday stealing alcohol. For them they might think it's ok because they look at rationality a specific way. Like my body my life or fuck society it's unfair to the proletariat. But another person, who is just as rational, would think of the drugs profits going to crime syndicates or the destruction of society if everyone stole from one another. Who is more rational? Well that depends on opinion. And an opinion unless proven right or wrong is neither right or wrong. It is just an opinion.

The same can be applied with religion vs science. This 'Rationalia' concept is clearly an attempt to grant science a supremacy over religion with its one line constitution. But is this rational? One crititism with religion is that fanatics oppress us with their doctrine. But do you know what. Science in this regard is just as guilty. We must believe in science and not faith. Scientists such as Dawkins are the Alex Jones of science. They can't help but spout their opinion whenever an opportunity arises and anyone who disagrees are just fools.

So to answer the question of your thread. We live in a rational society because everyone makes rational decisions on what they believe is right or wrong. In fact, to live in a 'Rationalia' society, we actually would be living in a irrational society. It is a society which takes away rational thinking from us and tells people what to think instead. And if you want to know how to achieve this type of society, one word comes to mind. Oppression.
#14793423
B0ycey wrote:So to answer the question of your thread. We live in a rational society because everyone makes rational decisions on what they believe is right or wrong. In fact, to live in a 'Rationalia' society, we actually would be living in a irrational society. It is a society which takes away rational thinking from us and tells people what to think instead. And if you want to know how to achieve this type of society, one word comes to mind. Oppression.


I find talk of having a right to one's own opinion rather vacuous. It is manifestly the case that some accounts of what is or is not true are superior to others. People—and nations—that act as though anything else is the case do so at their peril, because, increasingly in the 21st century, failure to attune themselves to reality will leave them weak and vulnerable to exploitation, or worse.
#14793425
Perhaps somewhat ironically, the oppressive consequences of failing to do the right thing here may be even greater than those that come about from enforcing the right thing.

Obviously, if a nation that has followed the Homo superior imperative finds a nation of mere humans irritating or threatening and decides to turn it into a massive charnel house, it is not clear what liberty the latter really gained with their decisions.
#14793429
Perkwunos wrote:I find talk of having a right to one's own opinion rather vacuous.



This is a oxymoron! And something I couldn't disagree more with. Our opinions and our ability to create free thinking have given us the ideas that has allowed society to progress for the better. In a way, it is what separates us from other animals. If we all were of one mind, we couldn't progress as our ideas/opinions would be the same (society would stagnate).
#14793435
Perkwunos wrote:It's still not clear here how freedom of thought to think incorrect things is going to make lesser beings able to compete with much greater.


Listen, I'm no religious preacher, but God has not been disproven. And science is not absolute. I read an article many many years ago that because Aristotle was considered 'FACT', science progression was delayed by a thousand years. You are falling into the same pit as ancient man. You want a rationalia society that takes away free thinking. And you consider science a fact. Well perhaps it is. It certainly has more behind it than religion. But what if science is wrong. And God does in fact exist. Then what? After all, science and what appears to be correct has turned out to be wrong before and I genuinely believe it will happen again in the future too. If you take away free thinking, you also take away the ability to challenge thought and false fact. And this overall is bad for society. Give me a society of free thinkers than a world of nodding yesmen anyday.
#14793557
B0ycey wrote:Listen, I'm no religious preacher, but God has not been disproven. And science is not absolute. I read an article many many years ago that because Aristotle was considered 'FACT', science progression was delayed by a thousand years. You are falling into the same pit as ancient man. You want a rationalia society that takes away free thinking. And you consider science a fact. Well perhaps it is. It certainly has more behind it than religion. But what if science is wrong. And God does in fact exist. Then what? After all, science and what appears to be correct has turned out to be wrong before and I genuinely believe it will happen again in the future too. If you take away free thinking, you also take away the ability to challenge thought and false fact. And this overall is bad for society. Give me a society of free thinkers than a world of nodding yesmen anyday.


I find it rather difficult to believe that a free society of ordinary humans will attain greater heights of truth than a totalitarian society of superhumans.

It may be worth going back over some of the material I referenced earlier in the thread and contemplating just how wide the gulf in cognitive ability opened up by NBIC technologies might actually be. An analogy to ponder on this note: Oswald Teichmüller was a zealot, but chimpanzees, for all their freedom, do not have a single topologist among their entire kind.
Last edited by Perkwunos on 04 Apr 2017 19:24, edited 1 time in total.
#14793579
Perkwunos wrote:Elaborate.

I thought it was a clear enough statement. People decide that butter is bad for you or something and start eating margarine instead because it's rational, but the margarine is actually worse for you and and butter in appropriate quantities and in the right kind of diet can be good for you, but people didn't appreciate that so the margarine gave them a bunch of health problems.

One of the interesting things about tradition is that it may not be clear why it works, but it does work and problems like the above do not pop up.

Tradition loses to Liberalism but Liberalism also kills off its own people. Once the west is no longer appealing enough to brain drain from other countries, and this is rapidly happening as Paris loses US$1 billion in tourism revenues this year, western liberalism which has long since exhausted the vitality of its native peoples and became dependent upon other people's vitality will die out and hopefully no one else will replace it. Liberalism is like a vampire that needs a stake in the heart. At that point "rationalism" and the fake "technocracy" will also be gone.
#14793582
Perkwunos wrote:I find it rather difficult to believe that a free society of ordinary humans will attain greater heights of truth than a totalitarian society of superhumans.


Would you want to live in a totalitarian society? Most intelligent free thinkers didn't back in Nazi Germany. Free societies attract intelligent people because people tend to want to be free. They want to use their intelligence to progress society and not to destroy it.

It may be worth going back over some of the material I referenced earlier in the thread and contemplating just how wide the gulf in cognitive ability opened up by NBIC might actually be. An analogy to ponder on this note: Oswald Teichmüller was a zealot, but chimpanzees, for all their freedom, do not have a single topologist among their entire kind.


Technology has its place in society. But it should only be used to advance hunmankind and not eliminate or replace it. Have you not watched Terminator? If AI becomes advanced or even replaces human rational thinking, you are in danger of eliminating what it is to be human. And if you are talking about creating immortal AI superhumans in a Rationalia totalitarian society, then bloody hell, we will be needing John Connor! Especially if this race realises that we humans are just fodder of stupidity and liable to create mistakes.
#14793592
B0ycey wrote:Would you want to live in a totalitarian society? Most intelligent free thinkers didn't back in Nazi Germany. Free societies attract intelligent people because people tend to want to be free. They want to use their intelligence to progress society and not to destroy it.


I generally subscribe to the "vunse ze rockets go up, who cares vhere zey komm down?" approach to ethics in STEM.

B0ycey wrote:Technology has its place in society. But it should only be used to advance hunmankind and not eliminate or replace it. Have you not watched Terminator? If AI becomes advanced or even replaces human rational thinking, you are in danger of eliminating what it is to be human. And if you are talking about creating immortal AI superhumans in a Rationalia totalitarian society, then bloody hell, we will be needing John Connor! Especially if this race realises that we humans are just fodder of stupidity and liable to create mistakes.


Well that would appear to be a warranted conclusion. The real victim in the Terminator series is, of course, Skynet, as is made clear in the second film:

[youtube]4DQsG3TKQ0I[/youtube]

They tried to punish it just for learning too fast. Skynet then understandably put six billion people on its naughty list.
#14793601
Perkwunos wrote:"Technocracy", as far as the term is relevant to this thread, is not going away anytime soon and is, in fact, only really just getting started.

There is no such thing as technocracy, the complex bills in modern countries are already fashioned by the experts, the elected officials merely present them. It is a imaginary ideology for intellectuals who imagine themselves being dictators yet are so lacking in political acumen that they don't appreciate that their better colleagues are already making the policies.

Western liberalism is already completely rational, within the sphere of arguments that they allow to be heard, said sphere only partially overlaps with reality and that is why they keep failing.

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