The Jewish Cardinal Who Claimed the Enlightenment Caused Antisemitism - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14882225
Prosthetic Conscience wrote:@noir , You are putting forward the words and ideas of a neo-Nazi (who quotes just a few words from Ruppin). It is important that everyone knows where your ideas come from.

@Potemkin , the interpretation of what Ruppin said is MacDonald's; noir has adopted that, while trying to make it look like her own words. Noir does blame Jews for causing antisemitic views, just like MacDonald does. I think it's important to know that noir thinks this way, and is happy using bigots liker MacDonald to speak for her.


Oh, boy
#14882228
noir wrote:Read the OP. At that time, it was believed antisemitism was the result of emancipation which was given by Napoleon decree. Before French revolution and emancipation order, the Jews didn't suffer so much by antisemitism nor there were much drifters the so called "self hating Jews". Of course, after WW2, this theme is no more popular because Europe tried to end institutional antisemitism.


I just gave few sources from that time to highlight the point the OP is telling. It sounds to him strange as if it's new for him. In fact it was the standard thinking.

No, what you did was quote MacDonald, from about 2 decades ago. If you'd wanted to quote Ruppin, you could have typed "ruppin" "the jews in the modern world" into Google, and you'd have had a full English text of that book. You'd then find that MacDonald had talked about "the Enlightenment's corrosive effects", but Ruppin didn't:

CHAPTER XXI
PRESERVATION OF RELIGION
(1) RELIGIOUS REFORMS
CONSCIOUSLY or unconsciously, and in various ways, Jewry
has struggled against the blows that have threatened its
existence. The several phases through which the Jewish re-
ligion has passed in the last century, from Orthodoxy by
way of Liberal to Reform Judaism, are so many attempts
made in the retreat to raise new ramparts against the de-
structive influence of European civilization. The original
front-line has been held only in a few remote territories
of Eastern Europe and the Near East. Elsewhere the ques-
tion turned merely on how far the retreat should go before
establishing a new defensive position.

https://ia902601.us.archive.org/0/items ... 000376.htm

It turns out that Ruppin is saying nothing at all about "the Enlightenment causing antisemitism".
#14882287
Potemkin wrote:So noir reads anti-semitic texts. So what? This does not necessarily mean that she agrees with what they have written (and, being Jewish herself, she would be extremely unlikely to agree with them). After all, one must know one's enemy. What she was agreeing with was the statement by Arthur Ruppin, one of the leading Zionists of the early 20th century and one of the founders of the city of Tel Aviv, which the anti-semite happened to quote.


noir has posted a number of antisemitic things, as well as posts that shows their aliance with neo-nazis (mainly bc of their shared hatred of browns/Muslims). It's weird you would defend her, as someone who poses as a leftist.

And especially because a lot of the early zionists were antisemitic and supported zionism because they figured Jews should get out of Europe. Joseph Massad can teach you some things:



Alright, let's keep it clean and not so personal.

-TIG Edit :borg:
Last edited by skinster on 25 Jan 2018 01:27, edited 2 times in total.
#14882508
William Bennett wrote:What “Jews” are being referenced? Abrahamic Jews a barely discenible minority or the present Ashkanarzi of East European ethnicity who illegally, genocidally and parasitically occupy PALESTINE. The curse of these east European wannabe Jews and their me,! me, me! strategy has led to their domination of western economies, newspapers, film, publication, advertising, tv, social organisations and specifically their possession of the American gonads, not much of a possession I admit but you hopefully get the picture eh? GOYIM!!

Always amusing when someone tries to spout the "Ashkenazim are Eastern European fake Jews" line. Like, you might have been able to get away with that line in a time before DNA testing existed, but now we have genetic tests that show conclusively that Ashkenazim are of Levantine origin, with significant genetic differences from other Europeans. Nice try, though.
#14882744
Paradigm wrote:Then there's the economic factor. Because they were barred from many traditional professions, Jews often became money lenders for their local lord.


This view is actually being put to rest now. I recommend works by Zvi Eckstein and Maristella Botticini who debunk claims of older historians of Jewish people like Cecil Roth. What they show instead, is that Jews had been employed in occupations connected with finance when most of them still lived in the Caliphates, and arrived in large numbers in Europe already as a population engaged for the most part in intellectually demanding trades. The Medieval laws concerning employment of Jews (and their ownership of land) were late, and often remained unenforced. Jews owned land (especially vineyards) in regions of Spain, Southern France and Italy, for example (in 11th and 12th century Barcelona 1/3 of real estate was held by owners identified as Jewish).

Eckstain and Boticini propose it was rather the early requirement of literacy (so that one could study the Torah, and then his sons too) which simply made those unwilling or unable to become literate leave Judaism somewhere around 500 C. E. With time, those who stayed could fill economic niches related to finance as often the only people around being able to read and write.

Here's an older paper by them.

BTW, patterns of anti-Semitism in pre-WWII Germany track patterns of anti-Jewish acts in Medieval times, so I'd consider the possibility the Cardinal was talking out of his ass (not exactly unheard of among them).

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