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#14901739
Mauvaise Conduite or Improper Conduct is a 1984 documentary film directed by Néstor Almendros and Orlando Jiménez Leal. The documentary interviews Cuban refugees to explore the Cuban government's imprisonment of homosexuals, political dissidents, and Jehovah's Witnesses into forced-labor camps under its policy of Military Units to Aid Production (UMAP).






#14901741
The gulag system for political dissent didn't end with the UMAP camps, it continued for decades -

Prison Labor

Human Rights Watch interviews with former Cuban prisoners provide disturbing evidence that Cuba abuses labor rights in its prisons. The Cuban government has an extensive system of prison labor camps, and runs clothing assembly, construction, furniture, and other factories as well as agricultural camps at its maximum and minimum security prisons.244 The Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners require prisons to have physically fit convicts take part in vocational training and engage in meaningful, rehabilitative work for equitable remuneration.245 However, Cuba's insistence that political prisoners participate in work programs and its inappropriate pressuring of inmates to work without pay in inhuman conditions violate international labor and prison rights standards.

The ILO's Abolition of Forced Labor Convention of 1957, which Cuba ratified in 1958, requires states to "secure the immediate and complete abolition" of forced or compulsory labor "as a means of political coercion or education or as a punishment for holding or expressing political views or views ideologically opposed to the established political, social or economic system."246 Thus Cuban prison authorities' requirement that individuals work while serving prison terms for holding anti-government views violates the Abolition of Forced Labor Convention.

Authorities at the Boniato prison in Santiago pressured Luis Alberto Ferrándiz Alfaro to employ the skills that led to his twelve-year sentence for enemy propaganda—he had designed anti-Castro stamps and flyers—for the benefit of the prison factory. Prison officials working for the Interior Ministry's Desa Company (Empresa Desa) reminded Ferrándiz Alfaro that since both he and his wife were imprisoned in 1993, their two young children lacked financial support.247 Under duress, Ferrándiz Alfaro accepted a post with Desa as a designer for numerous items, including jewelry and furniture.248 In return, the prison director sent eighty pesos per month (approximately U.S. $3.81) to the couple's children. Few prisoners receive even meager compensation. Ferrándiz Alfaro recalled the prison director commenting that other prisoners received their payment in "air and sun." Ferrándiz's work for the Desa Company ended when the Cuban government forced him into exile in Canada in February 1998.249

Ferrándiz Alfaro's wife, Xiomara Aliat Collado, who received a seven-year sentence for enemy propaganda, also was obligated to work. Prison guards told her that if she did not work in the prison's assembly factory she would lose her right tovisits with her children, her right to parole, or be sent to work in the nearby agricultural camp. From her arrest in March 1993 until March 1994, she worked at the Aguadores Prison in Santiago. After she was put under a year of house arrest to care for her ill son, she was imprisoned again and worked in the Ciudamar Prison factory in Santiago from March 1995 until her release in April 1996. Prison guards forced Aliat Collado to work in clothing assembly plants, where she made undergarments, women's clothing, and costumes for carnival celebrations. The inmate-workers did not attach any brand name labels to the clothing. Aliat Collado believed that the clothes were sold in state craft stores. The prisoners also made prison uniforms, envelopes, and paper holders for ice cream, which she said were used at the Helado Coppelia ice cream store in Santiago. She said that she often felt dizzy and weak while she worked, due to malnourishment, but that prison guards accused her of pretending to be ill, failed to provide sufficient food, and required extremely long hours. The workdays often extended from 7:00 a.m. until 10:00 p.m., with a short mid-day break. The armed prison guards who patrolled the factories often required workers to labor seven days a week.250

At this writing, Juan Carlos Recio Martínez, a journalist with the Cuba Press agency, is serving a one-year sentence in a labor camp, without internment. In February 1998, a Villa Clara court found him guilty of having failed to denounce an acquaintance who had drafted a document urging abstention from local elections.251 In June 1998, he began serving his sentence at the Abel Santamaría Cooperative, near Camajuaní in Villa Clara province, where he was forced to do agricultural work from approximately 7:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. each day.252

In October 1997, Cuban authorities arrested five members of the Pro Human Rights Party of Cuba in Cienfuegos. In March 1998, the court found the human rights activists guilty of "other acts committed against state security" (otros actos contra la seguridad del estado).253 The tribunal sentenced two of the defendants,sixty-nine-year-old Angel Nicolás Gonzalo and sixty-six-year-old Reynaldo Sardiñas Delgado, to one year in a labor camp without internment. Given Gonzalo's and Sardiñas Delgado's advanced age, Cuba may be violating the Standard Minimum Rules, which recommend that only physically fit prisoners work. Forcing the human rights activists to work also violates the ILO ban on compulsory labor for political prisoners.254
https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/C ... 696_409719
#14901782
In terms of raw numbers Cuba is never going to look too bad compared with far-eastern or european commies. It is a really small island; if they tortured and killed as many people as the PRC does on a lazy afternoon then the island would be totally de-populated just as quick. That doesn't mean broadly the same kind of stuff doesn't go on or that this is what we as humans should aspire to in our governance. Cuba is the micro of the Soviet macro.
#14901789
Cuba: Torture of women prisoners

Juan Carlos González Leiva, State Security Prison. Holguín, Cuba. October 27, 2003.

The Cuban Foundation for Human Rights reports the agonizing conditions of terror and torture suffered by women detained at this penitentiary, a unit of Cuban State Security in the province of Holguin, Cuba.

Day and night, the screams of tormented women in panic and desperation who cry for God's mercy fall upon the deaf ears of prison authorities. They are confined to narrow cells with no sunlight called "drawers" that have cement beds, a hole on the ground for their bodily needs, and are infested with a multitude of rodents, roaches, and other insects.

These female prisoners lack all sort of necessary personal possessions and almost always have no water, even for bathing, often drinking this precious liquid full of insects. The food distributed to them is terrible, smells rotten, and is stored in receptacles lacking in hygiene. Even prison officials have complained of the small quantities served.

In these "drawers" the women remain weeks and months. When they scream in terror due to the darkness (blackouts are common) and the heat, they are injected sedatives that keep them half-drugged.

They are supervised by men who personally administer the feminine products they need and who so often open these "drawers" without respecting their privacy.

One female prisoner cried out, "get me out!", "get me out, I'm suffocating!", and an official called Marino replied: "stick your nose out through a hole and shut up!"

If anyone in the penitentiary protests out loud, they are taken to assigned punishment cells where they must abide by a ruthless discipline.

Testimony provided by:

Juan Carlos González Leiva
Blind lawyer in prison and President of the Cuban Foundation for Human Rights

Provided via telephone from Cuba by Maritza Calderin, wife of Juan Carlos Gonzalez Leiva
Address: Honorato del Castillo # 154, entre Republica y Cuba, Ciego de Avila, Cuba. Tel: + 53-33-222235
Taped, transcribed and translated to English: Coalition of Cuban-American Women/LAIDA CARRO
E-mail: Joseito76@aol.com
https://web.archive.org/web/20090331143 ... 3/10e8.htm
#14901825
Sivad wrote:I have presented mountains of evidence, you're just a denier. Gulag denial is nasty, nasty business.


No. You presented arguments by others, and many of these arguments contain no evidence at all.

For example, a YouTube video is just a story on film, which may or may not contain evidence. Does the most recent video you posted contain evidence?
#14901957
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. You presented arguments by others, and many of these arguments contain no evidence at all.


Most of of what I posted is testimony evidence of the gulag treatment straight from the survivors themselves.

For example, a YouTube video is just a story on film, which may or may not contain evidence.

LOL recorded witness testimony is pretty fucking solid as far as historical evidence goes.

"just a story on film" :lol:

Does the most recent video you posted contain evidence?


It's video testimony from a survivor of the Castro regime who was brutally maimed by the Cuban political police. They chopped her hand off with a machete. You can see her stump in the story on film :D
#14901959
SolarCross wrote:POD: give me evidence!

Friendly debater: here you go!

POD: that's not an argument!


FD: here's an argument

POD: that's someone else's argument!

FD: oy vey
#14901968
"In a 2010 interview with La Jornada, Fidel Castro admitted in response to a question about the UMAP camps that "Yes, there were moments of great injustice, great injustice!"

If even Castro is saying there was great injustice in those gulags then you can bank on it that there was at least that. If anything he's most likely soft pedaling so if he says "great injustice" it was probably more like heinous atrocity.
#14902231
Sivad wrote:Most of of what I posted is testimony evidence of the gulag treatment straight from the survivors themselves.


And I quoted your own evidence back to you about how it was not a gulag in any traditional sense.

Like being allowed to leave, have visitors, getting paid the same as the guards, etc.

LOL recorded witness testimony is pretty fucking solid as far as historical evidence goes.

"just a story on film" :lol:


Unverifed anecdotes are unverified anecdotes.

It's video testimony from a survivor of the Castro regime who was brutally maimed by the Cuban political police. They chopped her hand off with a machete. You can see her stump in the story on film :D


So it has an unverified anecdote and less evidence than the evidence for Canadian gulags.

Why do you think Cuba is a totalitarian gulag state but you do not think Canada is?
#14902299
Totalitarian collectivists are a useful opposition to crony capitalist plutocracy but you don't ever want them taking over. The best we can do these days is give all the idiotic factions the space to fight it out and hope that results in a tolerable balance.
#14902302
Sivad wrote:Totalitarian collectivists are a useful opposition to crony capitalist plutocracy but you don't ever want them taking over. The best we can do these days is give all the idiotic factions the space to fight it out and hope that results in a tolerable balance.

I disagree that they make useful opposition. They are too dishonest and malevolent to be useful in the respect of keeping commercial players relatively honest, they taint everything they touch. Anytime you engage with one of them the conversation degrades into nonsense. Too much noise not enough signal.
#14902307
Pants-of-dog wrote:And I quoted your own evidence back to you about how it was not a gulag in any traditional sense.


You cherry picked a few lines from a short wiki article and ignored the most pertinent facts.

Like being allowed to leave, have visitors, getting paid the same as the guards, etc.


Sounds like a fun summer camp until you go and watch the survivor testimony or consider that Castro himself stated that there were "great injustices".

Unverifed anecdotes are unverified anecdotes.


First hand accounts are verification. And taken in conjunction with all the circumstantial evidence, they're pretty damning.

You should probably go learn a little something about the historical method before dispensing your ignorant opinion on the value of survivor testimony.
#14902311
SolarCross wrote:I disagree that they make useful opposition. They are too dishonest and malevolent to be useful in the respect of keeping commercial players relatively honest, they taint everything they touch. Anytime you engage with one of them the conversation degrades into nonsense. Too much noise not enough signal.


I don't know, their analysis of crony capitalism isn't entirely wrong. Their proposed solutions are batshit crazy and their methods are maniacally inhuman, but they are my enemy's enemy so they can be useful until they become a real problem. The moderates in the Cuban revolution should have purged Castro and the rest of the red fascists the second they were no longer needed. The 1940 constitution would have been restored and Cuba would have been a liberal democracy on the road to becoming a European style social democracy.
#14902315
Sivad wrote:You cherry picked a few lines from a short wiki article and ignored the most pertinent facts.

Sounds like a fun summer camp until you go and watch the survivor testimony or consider that Castro himself stated that there were "great injustices".

First hand accounts are verification. And taken in conjunction with all the circumstantial evidence, they're pretty damning.

You should probably go learn a little something about the historical method before dispensing your ignorant opinion on the value of survivor testimony.


None of this is an argument. Now you are arguing about how to argue.

Now, do you believe that all socialists and communists are “batshit crazy and their methods are maniacally inhuman”, or do you think some are and some are not?

Also, do you have any examples of Latin Americans trying to create something like a European social democracy? How did that work out? Why did it work out that way?
#14902319
Sivad wrote:I don't know, their analysis of crony capitalism isn't entirely wrong. Their proposed solutions are batshit crazy and their methods are maniacally inhuman, but they are my enemy's enemy so they can be useful until they become a real problem. The moderates in the Cuban revolution should have purged Castro and the rest of the red fascists the second they were no longer needed. The 1940 constitution would have been restored and Cuba would have been a liberal democracy on the road to becoming a European style social democracy.

It is worse than wrong it is garbage. They are the worst enemy, some bloke who fiddled his taxes is even not remotely on the same level of malfeasance. The moderates never have the stomach for purges and that is why they always die in droves to the radicals.
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