[SSDR]

@Julian658,

Exactly. Africans don't have the same standards as Norwegians do for example.

[Julian658]

So this has nothing to do with multiculturalism.



Now, what exactly is your claim that you are trying to support with this essay?



So, how does this support whatever claim you are making?

Wow, a couple of posts above you asked for references. This is what you said:

Please provide evidence for your claim that a multiracial population with a single unifying culture is much less racist than a multiracial population with individual different cultures.

Thank you.

And now you are wondering why I cited the work of Mr. Gates who was in Cuba seeing with his own eyes that the Cubans do not buy into multiculturalism or identity politics. It is quite evident that there is much less racism in Cuba than America. You ask for an article and then pretend I posted the article for the heck of it. Dude, YOU ASKED FOR THE ARTICLE.

You need to do a bit better. Saying that salt and pepper coexist or that weeds grow alongside other plants are awful examples to prove multiculturalism. I thought you were trolling, but perhaps you are serious. I feel a bit sorry for you. Please tell me you are just a troll, this is rather unbelievable.

Many that argue for the left are often insincere. I hope this is not the case.

[Julian658]

As I've said before, Cuba doesn't show that communism is good, it shows that strong institutions of law and order is good, and shows that a strong welfare state where everyone has equal access to basic education and health care is a good thing. All of this has been achieved in many capitalist liberal democracies around the world, with just about the lone exception in the West being the United States.

Meanwhile, we've seen in every other communist country horrible tyranny with collapsing and woefully inefficient economies where the populace suffers horrifically. In the developing world, we've seen time and again, especially with the east asian tigers, that the best recipe for success is a market economy with a strong state that is able to unleash the market's potential while controlling and guide the market away from things like predatory foreign investment and providing strong institutions, law and order, regulations, and basic social welfare for the people.

Totally agree!

[Pants-of-dog]

Wow, a couple of posts above you asked for references. This is what you said:



And now you are wondering why I cited the work of Mr. Gates who was in Cuba seeing with his own eyes that the Cubans do not buy into multiculturalism or identity politics. It is quite evident that there is much less racism in Cuba than America. You ask for an article and then pretend I posted the article for the heck of it. Dude, YOU ASKED FOR THE ARTICLE.

Well, then your evidence does not support your claim.

Your evidence does not discuss how many cultures there at all.

It also does not look at other factors that may play into race, such as economy and history. The USA during the slavery era was monocultural, and had lots of racism.

Another factor that it does discuss, and that I discussed, but you did not, was the fact that the revolution radically changed the existing paradigm, and got rid of the classist structure that supported racism.

You need to do a bit better. Saying that salt and pepper coexist or that weeds grow alongside other plants are awful examples to prove multiculturalism. I thought you were trolling, but perhaps you are serious. I feel a bit sorry for you. Please tell me you are just a troll, this is rather unbelievable.

Many that argue for the left are often insincere. I hope this is not the case.

You argued that diversity, by definition, includes inequality.

I provided examples of diversity that did not have inequality.

I even used an example of a country with high levels of ethnic diversity but where the inequality does not really exist, and you even provided evidence that I was right.

So no, I am not a troll, instead, you made a claim, and I proved it wrong.

[Julian658]

Well, then your evidence does not support your claim.

Your evidence does not discuss how many cultures there at all.

The main groups in Cuba are Spanish, African, and indigenous. Mostly a mix of all three with a minority of very African on one side and Spaniards on the other side. However, many are very even blend of all three groups over a very long time. The article by Gates clearly states Cubans classify themselves as Cuban. Gates pressed and baited Cubans into doing race identity, but they refused. Cuba is a monocultural country with three very different racial roots. And you admire Cuba for its low level of racism, I do too. As a typical American Gates wanted to inject multiculturalism and race identity politics which in my opinion is toxic.

It also does not look at other factors that may play into race, such as economy and history. The USA during the slavery era was monocultural, and had lots of racism.

Cuba had slavery until 1886----longer than in America. The black Cubans have put slavery in the past,----------they do not dwell on it--------------Cuba does it better with monoculturalism. They are happy people!

Another factor that it does discuss, and that I discussed, but you did not, was the fact that the revolution radically changed the existing paradigm, and got rid of the classist structure that supported racism.

Yes, blacks feel that they are part of the system and do not perceive racism. Please read the article by Gates. The Cuban blacks feel everybody has equal opportunity and that is all that matters.

You argued that diversity, by definition, includes inequality.

I provided examples of diversity that did not have inequality.

There is no equality. Even identical twins with the exact same DNA achieve differently. To try to achieve equality is the root of the evil of communism. We are not ants in a colony.

I even used an example of a country with high levels of ethnic diversity but where the inequality does not really exist, and you even provided evidence that I was right.

Not two Cubans are alike, However, everybody is treated the same. And they do this thanks to monoculturalism. In the eyes of the Cuban government everybody is Cuban. People are NOT classified according to looks, skin tone, type of hair, height, culture, religion, etc, etc. In other words they practice what MLK preached in America back in the 1960s.

So no, I am not a troll, instead, you made a claim, and I proved it wrong.

OK, this post was better than the salt and pepper post.

[Unthinking Majority]

Diversity is often a code-word for policies discriminating against white people and men. When you hire or don't hire somebody for a job simply because of their race or what's between their legs, it's racism and sexism. There's no such thing as "reverse racism", it's either racial discrimination or it isn't.

The only legit use of targeting "diversity" I can think is to legitimately bring in other voices to give a different perspective where it doesn't exist. Yes, people of colour and women can bring in a different way of looking at things from their perspective of a different lived experience. I also can sympathize with, say, a TV or movie studio that wants to hire a diverse cast in order for their product to appeal to a wider audience and therefore make more money. But the thought that every company and movie cast and crew or college admissions needs to equally match the demographics of the general public is ridiculous and just leads to more discrimination.

[Pants-of-dog]

The main groups in Cuba are Spanish, African, and indigenous. Mostly a mix of all three with a minority of very African on one side and Spaniards on the other side. However, many are very even blend of all three groups over a very long time. The article by Gates clearly states Cubans classify themselves as Cuban. Gates pressed and baited Cubans into doing race identity, but they refused. Cuba is a monocultural country with three very different racial roots. And you admire Cuba for its low level of racism, I do too. As a typical American Gates wanted to inject multiculturalism and race identity politics which in my opinion is toxic.

First of all, your claim is about how Cuba’s monoculturalism is responsible for the lack of racism.

Gates’ essay does not discuss monoculture at all. The closest thing it discusses is nationalism, and Cubans are quite nationalist. But this nationalism does not have anything to do with any single unifying culture.

Secondly, you are ignoring other factors and looking solely at multiculturalism. Other factors such as colonialism, a history of slavery, economic reinforcement of racism, classism, and other factors also influence how much racism there is a society. You seem to be ignoring all of this just so you can talk about your opinion about multiculturalism.

Cuba had slavery until 1886----longer than in America. The black Cubans have put slavery in the past,----------they do not dwell on it--------------Cuba does it better with monoculturalism. They are happy people!

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I just disproved your claim that multiracial states with a single unified culture will not be racist.

I gave you an example of a multiracial state with a single unified culture that was extremely racist.

Yes, blacks feel that they are part of the system and do not perceive racism. Please read the article by Gates. The Cuban blacks feel everybody has equal opportunity and that is all that matters.

Yes, and this is because the Cuban Revolution got rid of the classist and capitalist structure that supported the racism and gave everyone on the island the same economic opportunities.

There is no equality. Even identical twins with the exact same DNA achieve differently. To try to achieve equality is the root of the evil of communism. We are not ants in a colony.

If you think that we mean “absolutely identical in every single way” when we say that people should be treated equally, then you do not understand what we are saying.

Fortunately, I have already addressed this in this very thread and can simply repeat the answer:

Equality before the law, also known as equality under the law, equality in the eyes of the law, legal equality, or legal egalitarianism, is the principle that each independent being must be treated equally by the law (principle of isonomy) and that all are subject to the same laws of justice (due process). Therefore, the law must guarantee that no individual nor group of individuals be privileged or discriminated against by the government. Equality before the law is one of the basic principles of liberalism. This principle arises from various important and complex questions concerning equality, fairness and justice. Thus, the principle of equality before the law is incompatible and ceases to exist with legal systems such as slavery, servitude, colonialism, or monarchy.

Article 7 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) states: "All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law". Thus, everyone must be treated equally under the law regardless of race, gender, national origin, color, ethnicity, religion, disability, or other characteristics, without privilege, discrimination or bias. The general guarantee of equality is provided by most of the world's national constitutions, but specific implementations of this guarantee vary. For example, while many constitutions guarantee equality regardless of race, only a few mention the right to equality regardless of nationality.

Not two Cubans are alike, However, everybody is treated the same. And they do this thanks to monoculturalism. In the eyes of the Cuban government everybody is Cuban. People are NOT classified according to looks, skin tone, type of hair, height, culture, religion, etc, etc. In other words they practice what MLK preached in America back in the 1960s.

How do you know that Cuba is monocultural?

You keep saying that, but I do not know why you believe that, unless you are confusing Cuban nationalism with monoculturalism.

Do you know why Cubans are so nationalist?

[Julian658]

First of all, your claim is about how Cuba’s monoculturalism is responsible for the lack of racism.

Gates’ essay does not discuss monoculture at all. The closest thing it discusses is nationalism, and Cubans are quite nationalist. But this nationalism does not have anything to do with any single unifying culture.

Nationalism is very closely related to a single culture.

Secondly, you are ignoring other factors and looking solely at multiculturalism. Other factors such as colonialism, a history of slavery, economic reinforcement of racism, classism, and other factors also influence how much racism there is a society. You seem to be ignoring all of this just so you can talk about your opinion about multiculturalism.

English settlers came in as families and did not mix with the local population. The early Spanish conquistadores were single men and freely mixed with the indigenous people to the point that today there are no indigenous tribes on the island. Later they brought slaves to the island and in this regard this is just like America. In the post slavery era there was racism, however, the black Cubans never saw themselves as American blacks see themselves. The black Cubans do not dwell on slavery, it is over and they moved on. The do not have post slavery PTSD.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I just disproved your claim that multiracial states with a single unified culture will not be racist.

I gave you an example of a multiracial state with a single unified culture that was extremely racist.

The USA was extremely racist whereas racism is much less in Cuba. But, don't get me wrong there is racism in ALL cultures of the world.

Yes, and this is because the Cuban Revolution got rid of the classist and capitalist structure that supported the racism and gave everyone on the island the same economic opportunities.

I agree, enforcing equality is much easier in an authoritarian system. In addition they can indoctrinate people into whatever philosophy they want and everybody has to comply. This indoctrination is somewhat done in our public schools, but it is done differently. They use it within the multicultural doctrine and they also use a victimhood scheme that leads to anger and division. Left wingers have even created something called intersectionality where many other people are classified as victims. This has led to a hierarchy of victimhood. The media and left wing leaders preach racism 24/7 instead of finding solutions. They use racism as tool to get elected to office. This causes more PTSD among minorities. Imagine what is like to be told you are a victim 24/7 from birth to the tomb. It causes anger, resentment, low self esteem, and more division.

If you think that we mean “absolutely identical in every single way” when we say that people should be treated equally, then you do not understand what we are saying.

I don't know anyone that opposes equal treatment or equal opportunity, However, do not expect equal results

How do you know that Cuba is monocultural?

There are plenty of Cubans in my family. My sister married a Cuban.

You keep saying that, but I do not know why you believe that, unless you are confusing Cuban nationalism with monoculturalism.

Do you know why Cubans are so nationalist?

Cubans are more nationalistic than Americans. In some left wing circles the American flag is considered racist. In fact the extreme left loves the flag burning ritual. OTOH, right wingers think the flag is sacred. You will not find this division in Cuba .

[Godstud]

Cuba is not monocultural. In fact, it's the very definition of diversity in a culture.

The unique Cuban culture is born out of the different cultures coming into Cuba throughout the years – from different religions and languages, to various customs and traditions.

The presence of Spanish colonialists for centuries has no doubt left its marks too. But you will also find old Indian traditions, amongst the colonial buildings – with a touch of African musicality and joy.
https://www.cubatravelnetwork.com/disco ... an-culture

The old, "I know a Cuban, so I know Cuba.", argument, is pretty weak.

[Julian658]

Cuba is not monocultural. In fact, it's the very definition of diversity in a culture.

The unique Cuban culture is born out of the different cultures coming into Cuba throughout the years – from different religions and languages, to various customs and traditions.

The presence of Spanish colonialists for centuries has no doubt left its marks too. But you will also find old Indian traditions, amongst the colonial buildings – with a touch of African musicality and joy.
https://www.cubatravelnetwork.com/disco ... an-culture

The old, "I know a Cuban, so I know Cuba.", argument, is pretty weak.

The point I am making is that Cuba mostly has a single culture despite the different groups that coalesced on the island. Everybody is Cuban regardless of class or skin color. They have a unifying theme which is immensely useful.

America is becoming less unified due to emphasis on multiculturalism and race identity politics. This leads to tribalism, balkanization, and ultimately armed conflict.

Balkanization: Division of a multinational state into smaller ethnically entities.

[Julian658]

Cuba is not monocultural. In fact, it's the very definition of diversity in a culture.

[i]The unique Cuban culture is born out of the different cultures coming into Cuba throughout the years – from different religions and languages, to various customs and traditions.

I suspect a play of words here since the above are in contradiction.

All societies have a multiplicity of cultures. For example a household where the parents are mathematicians will be different from a household where the parents are social workers. However, they may share in common the cultural umbrella of the nation where they reside.

With regards to diversity: There is such a thing as ethnic diversity with a predominant single culture. There is also the possibility of racially homogenous group with diverse culture.

[Godstud]

You are talking about nationalism, @Julian658, and not cultural diversity.

[Julian658]

You are talking about nationalism, @Julian658, and not cultural diversity.

Cubans are nationalistic and racially diverse and mixed. The Cuban culture is the glue that holds them together. A single culture is always an advantage. Single culture nations can be nationalistic. To be nationalistic the population needs a unifying theme.

IN the USA democrats are not nationalistic whereas Republicans are nationalistic. Dems think nationalism is to be avoided because there was once a NAZI party in Germany. Republicans love the USA flag, extreme left wing Americans love to burn the flag. Obviously there is no unity in the USA.

Cultural nationalism is a form of nationalism in which the nation is defined by a shared culture. It is an intermediate position between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism.[1] Therefore, it focuses on a national identity shaped by cultural traditions, but not on the concepts of common ancestry or race.[2] WIKI

[Rich]

Basically Blacks in Cuba "know their place" and any that don't know, along with any Whites inclined to question the State's fantasies about abolishing racism, will soon be "educated" in political correctness. People think political correctness is a new phenomena, It emerged in the early days of the Soviet Union. Being politically correct was a matter of life and death.

The West is the victim of its own success. We have been given so much opportunity in the West as well as the freedom to ask questions. So inevitably the question arises why do Black people in the US and other western countries on average have such poor outcomes. The idea that Black people might be biologically or culturally disadvantaged is an anathema. it is the modern equivalent of blasphemy, challenging the most basic theological dogmas of our ruling cultural Marxist ideology. Hence the unending search for dark racism. The mysterious dark force that can never be found, but we know must exist to make our Cultural Marxist model of the world work.

Note the differing totalitarianisms. We are Cultural Marxist, so the number one anathema is questioning the biological / cultural abilities of Blacks and Muslims. Cuba is Marxist / Third World nationalist, so the number anathema is questioning the State and the Revolution. In Cuba, casual racist explanations are OK as long as it deflects blame away from the state and the Revolution.

[Julian658]

Basically Blacks in Cuba "know their place" and any that don't know, along with any Whites inclined to question the State's fantasies about abolishing racism, will soon be "educated" in political correctness. People think political correctness is a new phenomena, It emerged in the early days of the Soviet Union. Being politically correct was a matter of life and death.

The West is the victim of its own success. We have been given so much opportunity in the West as well as the freedom to ask questions. So inevitably the question arises why do Black people in the US and other western countries on average have such poor outcomes. The idea that Black people might be biologically or culturally disadvantaged is an anathema. it is the modern equivalent of blasphemy, challenging the most basic theological dogmas of our ruling cultural Marxist ideology. Hence the unending search for dark racism. The mysterious dark force that can never be found, but we know must exist to make our Cultural Marxist model of the world work.

Note the differing totalitarianisms. We are Cultural Marxist, so the number one anathema is questioning the biological / cultural abilities of Blacks and Muslims. Cuba is Marxist / Third World nationalist, so the number anathema is questioning the State and the Revolution. In Cuba, casual racist explanations are OK as long as it deflects blame away from the state and the Revolution.

Here is segment of the article published by Henry Louis Gates Jr. a black Harvard professor. Gates asked black Cuban men how come so many college professors in Cuba where white:

But I then took the opportunity to ask them why there weren’t more professors like me at the universities—and why the affluent neighborhoods didn’t have more black residents.

“I think perhaps it is because white people like to study more,” Yoxander said, surprising me with his frankness. “They keep on going and try to improve their life, day after day.”

As you can imagine, I felt some strong emotions in that moment. But I wasn’t talking to Yoxander to judge him.

“Why don’t black people have the same values?” I asked.

“Perhaps it’s because of their genes, their own mentality, the way they see life, the way they are,” he answered. “Or perhaps, because of the context in which they grew up, they are happy the way they are and don’t want anything else.”

Gates was perplexed with how frank the black Cubans were. It seems the Cubans understood that equal opportunity does not lead to equal results. This is important because in America highly educated people on the left do not get this concept.

I asked him if he believes there is racial discrimination in Cuba.

“Not really,” he said, shaking his head, “not on a grand scale. We all grew up together—white, mestizo, black, mulatto. We were all educated to the same level.”


“And there are black people with a low level of education and white people with a low level of education,” Rafael piped in. “The problem is that black people sometimes have complexes. They discriminate against themselves. They call each other black. But they have the same rights.”

Okay, I thought. The word on the street, among average Cubans, is that discrimination doesn’t exist. But I wanted to get another perspective. So I ended my discussions about race with Rafael and Yoxander and decided to jump to the top of the income ladder. As in much of the world, successful blacks in Cuba are often athletes, not lawyers or doctors.


https://www.theroot.com/one-on-one-with-afro-cubans-what-it-means-to-be-black-1790860590

[Pants-of-dog]

Nationalism is very closely related to a single culture.

Not in this case.

English settlers came in as families and did not mix with the local population. The early Spanish conquistadores were single men and freely mixed with the indigenous people to the point that today there are no indigenous tribes on the island. Later they brought slaves to the island and in this regard this is just like America. In the post slavery era there was racism, however, the black Cubans never saw themselves as American blacks see themselves. The black Cubans do not dwell on slavery, it is over and they moved on. The do not have post slavery PTSD.

Yes, you keep repeating this. It seems like you really want to believe that racism in the USA is due to black people being emotional.

The USA was extremely racist whereas racism is much less in Cuba. But, don't get me wrong there is racism in ALL cultures of the world.

As long as we agree that it is incorrect to say that a country with ethnic diversity and a single unified culture will not be racist.

I agree, enforcing equality is much easier in an authoritarian system. In addition they can indoctrinate people into whatever philosophy they want and everybody has to comply. This indoctrination is somewhat done in our public schools, but it is done differently. They use it within the multicultural doctrine and they also use a victimhood scheme that leads to anger and division. Left wingers have even created something called intersectionality where many other people are classified as victims. This has led to a hierarchy of victimhood. The media and left wing leaders preach racism 24/7 instead of finding solutions. They use racism as tool to get elected to office. This causes more PTSD among minorities. Imagine what is like to be told you are a victim 24/7 from birth to the tomb. It causes anger, resentment, low self esteem, and more division.

You seem to be ignoring what i am writing and you just repeat the same old unsupported stuff even though I just explained how it was wrong.

Here, for example, you completely ignore how racism in Latin America is supported by a rigid class system, and how the Cuban Revolution got rid of said system.

I don't know anyone that opposes equal treatment or equal opportunity, However, do not expect equal results

I know a lot of racist people, and others who oppose equality based on citizenship and other factors.

There are plenty of Cubans in my family. My sister married a Cuban.

I see. So you do not actually know if Cuba is monocultural.

Cubans are more nationalistic than Americans. In some left wing circles the American flag is considered racist. In fact the extreme left loves the flag burning ritual. OTOH, right wingers think the flag is sacred. You will not find this division in Cuba.

So you do not know why Cubans are nationalist.

I will give you a hint: it has a lot to do with the USA.

[Julian658]

Not in this case.

I cannot guess what you are thinking. Please tell me why the Cubans are nationalistic? The embargo? That does not explain nationalism in the rest of Latin America.

Yes, you keep repeating this. It seems like you really want to believe that racism in the USA is due to black people being emotional.

There is a paradox: Racism is much less today than in the past, but if you ask some black people they do not agree. Post racism PTSD is real-----just google.

As long as we agree that it is incorrect to say that a country with ethnic diversity and a single unified culture will not be racist.

Racist in comparison to what? The utopic last stage of communism? As things go the mixture of races in Cuba get along just fine. Is it perfect? No!!

Here, for example, you completely ignore how racism in Latin America is supported by a rigid class system, and how the Cuban Revolution got rid of said system.

I have stated I am in agreement with that concept at nauseam.

I know a lot of racist people, and others who oppose equality based on citizenship and other factors.

I also know flag burners who think nationalism is the same as being a NAZI. So what?

I see. So you do not actually know if Cuba is monocultural.

Cubans have a national identity that is the glue that unites them. I am certain a Cuban college professor has different cultural values than a Cuban that has a blue collar job. Is that your point?

So you do not know why Cubans are nationalist.

I cannot read your mind. I can only guess that the government preaches nationalism by stating they are fighting the evil gringo empire 90 miles away to the north. That formula works every time to create nationalism.

[Unthinking Majority]

Leftists are so obsessed with Cuba. Takes 30 horrific communist regimes to crap out a Cuba which is at least semi-functional and yet tyrannical, and they think it's evidence of their utopian socialist dreams. Scandanavians live much better, people have freedom, and folks don't disappear in the night.

[Julian658]

Leftists are so obsessed with Cuba. Takes 30 horrific communist regimes to crap out a Cuba which is at least semi-functional and yet tyrannical, and they think it's evidence of their utopian socialist dreams. Scandanavians live much better, people have freedom, and folks don't disappear in the night.

The left is always looking for that elusive socialist country that did well. And when confronted they always say that was not real socialism or they say that the USA made them fail. I know many on the left that think Venezuela would be a paradise if not for the USA. Chomsky used to be a Venezuela lover.

They also compare the defects of capitalism to the utopia of the last state of communism which is basically even better than Nirvana, Valhalla, and heaven put together.

[Julian658]

Not in this case.

I agree with you in many points. I see these discussions as a learning tool. Somehow others see this as a confrontation of contrarians that will manipulate the language or use all the debate fallacies known to mankind before agreeing to anything.