Couple of brief comments on philosophy - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15043337
There is a learning curve.

I can't know where you are on the curve, but I can suggest a couple things, tell you what the road looks like to me.

Piaget's Insights and Illusions of Philosophy is a brilliant paper. It's dated, but it's easy enough that you shouldn't have a problem with it. You'll most likely find it in a collected works book. But you might find a used copy, it used to be published as a stand alone.

One of the ways traditional philosophy starts is with a description of how we come to know the world. Problem is, science has been working on that since the 1800s, and there is an epic amount of work on the subject. IOW, if you are reading a traditional sort of thing, they are not trying to re-invent the wheel, they are trying to re-invent the Moon program without any engineering knowledge.

Rorty talked about that. For my 2 cents, Rorty was the most important thinker of that century. I think of him as the Moses of philosophy. He could see the rough outline of a future where philosophy stopped hiding from science. But, back then, it was not at all clear what that future would look like.

What happened is that scientists started doing philosophy to deal with intellectual problems they had. They weren't interested in philosophy, per se, so they didn't have the usual philosophical ambitions.

But they did need to ditch most of the language and intellectual baggage traditional philosophy carried around.

Here's an example of that work:

https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Perspectivism-Ronald-N-Giere/dp/0226292126/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=ronald+n+giere&qid=1571500306&sr=8-3

But to make a long story short, they are interested in models of reality. No once cares if a model is true, much less eternal. But they do care how well it works.
#15146447
Is this a vague point about the place of philosophy diminished by the fact that empirical science has founded much which can help answer questions of human psychology which were speculative previously?

And Rorty, being particularly American says of philosophical questions we still haven’t certain answers to responds who cares? Lets move on.’

So where do you place philosophy’s relevance? It seems as a means of clarifying science and thus only furthers science but has no role independent of it. But a lot of science is very conservative and based in empirical description such that it depending on the methodology it is narrow itself in the same way systematic philosophies can be criticized to be.

A concern with scientists I think can be their narrowness in their specialization that they end up taking their methodology in their field as a world view or general philosophy. Biologists who on effect end up believing the world can be explained through the biological and so on. And of course science often averse to more than explaining and describing many phenomena but not always digging further. That there is a derision to philosophy in the emphasis on science. The two are complimentary and a lot of philosophical thought does get somewhat resolved through science but can’t in itself answer philosophical questions but help discount some answers.

And the disregard for truth and only effective practice again sounds like the particularly American/pragmatism attitude than a universal one necessarily. Pragmatism is a great tradition but one I find to narrowly individualistic in its abstractions that it discounts a lot which helps to constitute social being. A contention itself to be based in a different philosophy.
#15146568
Which came first? Philosophy or Science? Philosophy I would think. Without philosophical like thinkers, we’d have no science.
#15153047
ness31 wrote:Which came first? Philosophy or Science? Philosophy I would think. Without philosophical like thinkers, we’d have no science.

Indeed but science has outgrown a lot of its speculative methods although its development in part requires thinkers with a philosophical sense possibly.
#15153049
ness31 wrote:
Which came first? Philosophy or Science? Philosophy I would think. Without philosophical like thinkers, we’d have no science.



If you look at the ancient Greeks, there wasn't a difference. If you go back further, we don't really know.
#15153133
Wellsy wrote:Indeed but science has outgrown a lot of its speculative methods although its development in part requires thinkers with a philosophical sense possibly.


Exactly. It all starts with a thought bubble :)

If you look at the ancient Greeks, there wasn't a difference. If you go back further, we don't really know.


Like, how far back? Even cave man had a club.. that was his contribution to philosophy :)
#15159680
ness31 wrote:
Which came first? Philosophy or Science?



When you ask which came first, the chicken or the egg, the real answer is the dinosaur.

It's a silly question, since you can't have one, without the other.

Science and philosophy were one until the Renaissance. A lot of early astronomers were also astrologers (speaking about the Renaissance still). The divisions between the schools did not exist.

But they've split now, and science has snacked on philosophy's hindquarters.

Sciencesaurus...
#15159703
All I’m saying is that you can’t have science - any kind of science - without the ability to process what it is that has been observed. So in that sense, for myself anyway, philosophy or the act of thinking deeply is the precursor to science.

late wrote:I think, therefore you are not.


Exactly. Now give it to me in Latin :p
#15159820
late wrote:He could see the rough outline of a future where philosophy stopped hiding from science.

It's the other way around. Science tends to hide from philosophy. Science relies on mathematics, which isn't physical at all. Additionally, mathematics contain expressions that can neither be proven nor disproven. So taken as a universal set, the universal set itself can neither be proven nor disproven.

late wrote:What happened is that scientists started doing philosophy to deal with intellectual problems they had. They weren't interested in philosophy, per se, so they didn't have the usual philosophical ambitions.

Yes, but they are still vexed by things like Kurt Godel's incompleteness theorems. Math contains expressions that can neither be proven nor disproven, and the system itself cannot be proven nor disproven.

Maybe reading On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems I would do one some good.

Wellsy wrote:And Rorty, being particularly American says of philosophical questions we still haven’t certain answers to responds who cares? Lets move on.’

Rorty isn't alone in that regard. Richard Dawkins does this too by suggesting we stop asking such questions.

Wellsy wrote:And the disregard for truth and only effective practice again sounds like the particularly American/pragmatism attitude than a universal one necessarily.

Well, the very models we're talking about rely on truth-value functions. It's not wholly unreasonable to discuss how well models and their projections stack up to reality (global warming models and their projections being my favorite target), but they necessarily rely on truth-value functions. So truth-value functions are at the very heart of the system. It's not untenable to suggest that what a model says is true has only a tangential relationship to actual physical reality. It's another thing to say that truth is somehow irrelevant.

ness31 wrote:All I’m saying is that you can’t have science - any kind of science - without the ability to process what it is that has been observed.

And that's usually math and logic. We have to take Wikipedia with a grain of salt, but they note that Mathematics has no generally accepted formal definition itself; and, yet most of science relies upon it heavily.

Mathematics
Mathematics has no generally accepted definition.[6][7] Aristotle defined mathematics as "the science of quantity" and this definition prevailed until the 18th century. However, Aristotle also noted a focus on quantity alone may not distinguish mathematics from sciences like physics; in his view, abstraction and studying quantity as a property "separable in thought" from real instances set mathematics apart.[42]

In the 19th century, when the study of mathematics increased in rigor and began to address abstract topics such as group theory and projective geometry, which have no clear-cut relation to quantity and measurement, mathematicians and philosophers began to propose a variety of new definitions.[43]

A great many professional mathematicians take no interest in a definition of mathematics, or consider it undefinable.[6] There is not even consensus on whether mathematics is an art or a science.[7] Some just say, "Mathematics is what mathematicians do."[6]

And while the proofs of physical sciences are predicated on math, are physical sciences themselves not built on an ephemeral foundation?

According to late, there is no absolute truth--of that much he is certain. :lol:
#15159866
blackjack21 wrote:
It's the other way around.



I'm almost 70, and my health isn't great. So a belly laugh first thing in the morning is an almost painful experience.

You need to understand your gift is comedy.
#15160298
ckaihatsu wrote:
Which part of it could be improved, do you think?



You are trying to turn a slew of complicated ideas into a simple graphic.

That isn't easy. That's not a skill I have, at all.

One of the problems is communicating effectively with your audience. As you know, I look at these things somewhat different from most. If you are aiming at a typical forum member, it gets worse. The image will be their first exposure to some of those ideas.

The only thing I can think of is to turn them into a video, that would give you the chance to explain what each element is, and how it fits into the overall picture.
#15160302
late wrote:
You are trying to turn a slew of complicated ideas into a simple graphic.

That isn't easy. That's not a skill I have, at all.

One of the problems is communicating effectively with your audience. As you know, I look at these things somewhat different from most. If you are aiming at a typical forum member, it gets worse. The image will be their first exposure to some of those ideas.

The only thing I can think of is to turn them into a video, that would give you the chance to explain what each element is, and how it fits into the overall picture.



Okay, thanks -- it's meant to be a *framework*, or taxonomy, and I've been inspired by Bloom's Taxonomy, from my schooling in education:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_taxonomy#The_cognitive_domain_(knowledge-based),_original_version


I've considered doing the videos thing, and it may very well happen at some point.

I'll also note that any framework / taxonomy may be readily turned into a *database* by anyone, as shown here:


universal paradigm DATABASE

Spoiler: show
Image



‭universal paradigm SLIDES TEMPLATE

Spoiler: show
Image

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