[annatar1914]

The Enlightenment Project was, and still is, an attempt to remake human society from the ground up by applying human reason to analyse it from first principles and reform it root and branch until it conforms to our sense of reason. It is, in fact, an attempt to rationalise human society.

I would venture to say then that despite all attempts of the Right to picture Communism/Socialism as an extension of the Enlightenment Project and hence close kin to Liberalism, I would deny it in full. It is a Project of mutual collective Love, not Reason.

What the Enlightenment rationalists did not seem to understand, however, is that Reason itself has its own internal contradictions, as people like Goedel or Wittgenstein pointed out, and that we may believe that Reason has expelled the idols of superstition and passion, only to find that Reason has itself been enthroned as just another tawdry idol to be unthinkingly and superstitiously worshipped by the credulous masses.

It's like the Apple of Discord, Reason is, for many things have been declared reasonable by men at one time or another.

This is why Nietzsche talked about the need to "philosophise with a hammer", to tap the feet of humanity's idols to hear if they are hollow or not....

A curious parallel with Marx then, who believed that real Philosophy should be a Philosophy of Action, like his master Plato...

[Potemkin]

I would venture to say then that despite all attempts of the Right to picture Communism/Socialism as an extension of the Enlightenment Project and hence close kin to Liberalism, I would deny it in full. It is a Project of mutual collective Love, not Reason.

I agree - it will be human co-operative behaviour, human communion, in its highest and fullest form, which will transfigure both humanity and Nature itself....

It's like the Apple of Discord, Reason is, for many things have been declared reasonable by men at one time or another.

Human Reason can be employed to justify all manner of irrational things, just as God can be employed to justify all manner of demonic things. This is what happens when humanity worships idols.

A curious parallel with Marx then, who believed that real Philosophy should be a Philosophy of Action, like his master Plato...

Precisely! Both Marx and Nietzsche were trying to do essentially the same thing - to "philosophise with a hammer", to use thought like a hammer, a tool with which to test the value and sturdiness of humanity's idols. Unsurprisingly, most of those idols are found to be hollow....

The most serious thinkers have always understood that there is no contradiction between the thought of Marx and the thought of Nietzsche. The turning point in Michel Foucault's intellectual life, for example, was when he discovered the work of Nietzsche. He picked up the hammer which had dropped from Nietzsche's hand and he started tapping the feet of humanity's idols again....

The Revolution, when it comes, will be not merely a change in the mode of economic production, but also a Nietzschean transvaluation of all values, as humanity overturns those tawdry, hollow idols which have governed our minds for so long....

[Tainari88]

I agree - it will be human co-operative behaviour, human communion, in its highest and fullest form, which will transfigure both humanity and Nature itself....


Human Reason can be employed to justify all manner of irrational things, just as God can be employed to justify all manner of demonic things. This is what happens when humanity worships idols.


Precisely! Both Marx and Nietzsche were trying to do essentially the same thing - to "philosophise with a hammer", to use thought like a hammer, a tool with which to test the value and sturdiness of humanity's idols. Unsurprisingly, most of those idols are found to be hollow....

The most serious thinkers have always understood that there is no contradiction between the thought of Marx and the thought of Nietzsche. The turning point in Michel Foucault's intellectual life, for example, was when he discovered the work of Nietzsche. He picked up the hammer which had dropped from Nietzsche's hand and he started tapping the feet of humanity's idols again....

The Revolution, when it comes, will be not merely a change in the mode of economic production, but also a Nietzschean transvaluation of all values, as humanity overturns those tawdry, hollow idols which have governed our minds for so long....

The Power of Myth my dear Potemkin. The Power of Myth. When the reality is love as in theory and practice and then execution is when people are developed beings with love in their hearts, minds and spirits. And they can finally be fully human....

For me there is no contradiction between @annatar1914 love of God and Christian practices and his socialism and knowing what social justice looks like.

The idol worshipers with false gods are the ones who love money, power and status and they have no time for love or being of service to others...

El amor is both science and religion and the dialectic. Finally functioning on all cylinders.

Are you still awake? I had to be in and out with my little boy and cooking....he is starving to death you know...

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin ;

I agree - it will be human co-operative behaviour, human communion, in its highest and fullest form, which will tranfigure both humanity and Nature itself....

In Christian Life it's the difference between reciting the ''Our Father'' which is fine of course, but also living it, especially the part of ''Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven''... God the Holy Trinity is an Absolute Community and Unity in Love. Love is the answer

Human Reason can be employed to justify all manner of irrational things, just as God can be employed to justify all manner of demonic things. This is what happens when humanity worships idols.

Absolutely, for the Idol is one's creation, and therefore a mirror of one's distorted self.

Precisely! Both Marx and Nietzsche were trying to do essentially the same thing - to "philosophise with a hammer", to use thought like a hammer, a tool with which to test the value and sturdiness of humanity's idols. Unsurprisingly, most of those idols are found to be hollow....

Men who say Marx and Neitzsche were both Atheists and stop right there, probably should consider if they revolted against the ''God'' of Martin Luther and John Calvin, an Idol, but knew not any true Image out there of God among the Bourgeoisie.

The most serious thinkers have always understood that there is no contradiction between the thought of Marx and the thought of Nietzsche. The turning point in Michel Foucault's intellectual life, for example, was when he discovered the work of Nietzsche. He picked up the hammer which had dropped from Nietzsche's hand and he started tapping the feet of humanity's idols again....

I'll have to admit needing to read Foucault, been wanting to do so for some time.

The Revolution, when it comes, will be not merely a change in the mode of economic production, but also a Nietzschean transvaluation of all values, as humanity overturns those tawdry, hollow idols which have governed our minds for so long....

Consider the amorality and lack of ethical standard of Dostyoevsky's Orthodoxy, and the rapture with which Neitzsche read his work. Miserable Anglo-Saxon ethics, of a kin with ''Phariseeism'' in all times and places, just doesn't wash with me, never did.

[Potemkin]

The Power of Myth my dear Potemkin. The Power of Myth. When the reality is love as in theory and practice and then execution is when people are developed beings with love in their hearts, minds and spirits. And they can finally be fully human....

For me there is no contradiction between @annatar1914 love of God and Christian practices and his socialism and knowing what social justice looks like.

The idol worshipers with false gods are the ones who love money, power and status and they have no time for love or being of service to others...

El amor is both science and religion and the dialectic. Finally functioning on all cylinders.

Are you still awake? I had to be in and out with my little boy and cooking....he is starving to death you know...

I was good and went to bed early, but woke up at about 1.30am with a bad headache. Lol.

And your little boy just has a healthy appetite, Tainari. He's a growing lad, you know!

[Tainari88]

@annatar1914 said:

Consider the amorality and lack of ethical standard of Dostyoevsky's Orthodoxy, and the rapture with which Neitzsche read his work. Miserable Anglo-Saxon ethics, of a kin with ''Phariseeism'' in all times and places, just doesn't wash with me, never did.

Ssshhush Annatar. Let us not wake up our Anglophile friends....I never was a fan of miserable Anglo-Saxon ethics either...and think them a bunch of Pharisees indeed.

But got to keep it quiet. Reverse racism accusations soon follow such opinions you know.

Hee hee. You should Annatar read Foucault. Great thoughts there.

Hmm. Love is what it is all about. Reason in the service of love is power. That is what I think.

My two favorite men besides @Rancid on Pofo.....Annatar and Potemkin.

[Potemkin]

In Christian Life it's the difference between reciting the ''Our Father'' which is fine of course, but also living it, especially the part of ''Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven''... God the Holy Trinity is an Absolute Community and Unity in Love. Love is the answer

Without love, everything is in vain, as St Paul pointed out.

Absolutely, for the Idol is one's creation, and therefore a mirror of one's distorted self.

Indeed. A diseased tree can only bear diseased fruit.

Men who say Marx and Neitzsche were both Atheists and stop right there, probably should consider if they revolted against the ''God'' of Martin Luther and John Calvin, an Idol, but knew not any true Image out there of God among the Bourgeoisie.

In this society, to be an 'atheist' is the only possible option for those with true faith. Better no religion than false religion, a self-serving religion of lies.

I'll have to admit needing to read Foucault, been wanting to do so for some time.

He had important things to say about Western society, as did Althusser.

Consider the amorality and lack of ethical standard of Dostyoevsky's Orthodoxy, and the rapture with which Neitzsche read his work. Miserable Anglo-Saxon ethics, of a kin with ''Phariseeism'' in all times and places, just doesn't wash with me, never did.

The Russian Orthodox Church in the late 19th century was a thoroughly disreputable organisation - its last truly great figure had been Avvakum, and we both know what happened to him. Most Russian intellectuals in the late 19th century wouldn't touch the Orthodox Church with a 10-foot bargepole. This is why Dostoyevsky's decision to side with the Orthodox Church was so unusual and so shocking for many people. Yet, as morally compromised as the Orthodox Church was, it was a paragon of virtue compared to what passes for 'Christianity' in the bourgeois West....

[annatar1914]

@Potemkin

Without love, everything is in vain, as St Paul pointed out.

Yes indeed. Would that many listen to those words of his a little closer.

Indeed. A diseased tree can only bear diseased fruit.

And yet how they labor to convince us the tree and it's fruits are healthy and even life-giving!

In this society, to be an 'atheist' is the only possible option for those with true faith. Better no religion than false religion, a self-serving religion of lies.

This is why knowing that God is both more just and merciful than man is important, for God knows the heart.

He had important things to say about Western society, as did Althusser.

Make that two I need to read then

The Russian Orthodox Church in the late 19th century was a thoroughly disreputable organisation - its last truly great figure had been Avvakum, and we both know what happened to him. Most Russian intellectuals in the late 19th century wouldn't touch the Orthodox Church with a 10-foot bargepole. This is why Dostoyevsky's decision to side with the Orthodox Church was so unusual and so shocking for many people. Yet, as morally compromised as the Orthodox Church was, it was a paragon of virtue compared to what passes for 'Christianity' in the bourgeois West...

As it happens I'm rather close to Russian ''Old Believers'' so I'm not too fond of the official Orthodoxy anyway; ''Nikonian'' schism as the ''Old Believers'' might say after the Patriarch Nikon who began the spiritual crisis in Russia (a contemporary of St. Avvakum Petrov and a tremendous figure in his own right except it made the evil he did even more great).

[SolarCross]

Love cannot be compelled only persuaded. It may be some love can never be persuaded because the incompatibilities between the beings are too great. Where love can not happen then toleration must fill the gap to soften enmity and avoid destruction. Toleration is not love but it is a nice barrier between foes. The essence of toleration is distance. The further removed, physically and perceptively, one is from a object of detestation the easier it is to tolerate it. Thus if we can not love we should just stay out each other's business. Unless one likes to fight of course. Fighting has its place let us be honest.